Savage ML10-II pretty much Sucks!!

[Lowrider49]

3 years ago my wonderful family bought me a new Savage ML10-II for my birthday. I was pretty excitedbought a Nikon 3-9x and a bunch of "stuff" for it and tried it out with IMR 4227 ('cause I had some). It didn't work. I called Savage and they sent me some new vent liners and told me to use 2400 or IMR 4759. I tried 2400 and it fired once in 2 or 3 times...not acceptable!! I put it away for the time being.

2 years ago I tried to make the gun go boom and it wouldn't on a regular basis...I put it away for another year.

In the mean time I bought a T/C 45/209 barrel for my Encore and have killed two deer with it and never had a missfire with 777.

Last week I thought I'll try the Savage again. I pulled the breach plug, soaked it in brake cleaner, pulled the vent liner and ran a 5/32" bit thru the plug, put in a NEW vent liner, dried out the barrel completely, replaced it in the barrel. I loaded 30 grains of 2400 and a MMP black and a SST250 gr and tried to put about 30 - 40 lbs pressure on the rod to fully seat the sabot/bullet. I put a Win 209 in the bolt and poof.... primer fired as designed and the powder did not!! Tried a CCI 209..same result.5 five other attempts didn't work either. Also tried N110, 4198 and universal clays with just a sabot...it WILL NOT fire the powder.

Short of turning the damn thing into a tomato stake what can I do??? Will 0.033" vent liners make a difference?? I can't find IMR 4759 around here.

 

[DeerNut]

With that much trouble I can see why you think the Savage sucks.

First, smokeless will not ignite with a sabot alone. You need enough backpressure to have consistent ignition. Its unfortunate you chose 4227, since it's notorious for misfires and is no longer a recommended savage powder.

Also, I think your other problem is your bullet weight/powder combinations. You need to match bullet weight with your powder to have consistent ignition. I would recommend reading some or all of Randy Wakeman's articles and use AA5744 with 250 to 300 grain bullets. I think you'll end up being pleasantly surprised with the consistent ignition of this powder.

Personally, I've put about 200 rounds through my ML this summer, with no misfires (knock on wood).

Don't give up. You've found the best source of info right here on this board. Listen to everything people say here, it will save you the headache.

Good luck, and don't give up.

 

[Anonymous]

I put a Win 209 in the bolt and poof.... primer fired as designed and the powder did not!! Tried a CCI 209..same result.5 five other attempts didn't work either. Also tried N110, 4198 and universal clays with just a sabot...it WILL NOT fire the powder.

Use AA5744.

An easy check to see if fire is getting to the charge is to hold a patch against the breechplug-- it should blow a hole clean through. :shock:

 

[Loggy]

Have fired hundreds of shots with AA 5744 & never a misfire.

Heard yesterday that someone also had problems with a Browning Gold semi jammin. Geez, must be a Full Moon or sumpin! :lol:

 

[big6x6]

I have fired hundreds of rounds without a misfire with N110 and 5744. Just wondering...Do you pop off a primer before loading a charge? If you are having problems, why not send it to Savage and let them have a look see?

 

[dwhunter]

Something ain't right! I've owned three Savages and I've only had two misfires period and that was pretty much user error. You shouldn't have any problem with the 2400 but try the n110 or 5744. Unless the bullets are going down the barrel so easy the charge doesn't have enough back pressure, that's what caused one of my misfires. :? One thing about it once you've found the right bullet/powder combo the Savage has the capability to shoot the lights out of a Encore cause I own a couple of those too. So hang in there! :wink:

 

[Doohan]

if 5744 doesnt go bang.. send it to savage like chuck said..

 

[Rifleman]

I have set up 3 Savage 10 mlII's and shot N110, N120, AA5744, H322, IMR4198 and AA2015. I have never had a single misfire. Not one. Don't know what the problem is your having but I can assure you it is not the normal experience.

 

[Lowrider49]

Thanks gentlemen!!

I've been lurking for a week or so and have tried most of the suggestions I have seen for problems.

When I put just a sabot in and fire a primer the sabot will go thru one side of a cardboard box with no problem. This tell me it is a powder/pressure or sabot problem since I am getting plenty of fire thru the plug....I believe.

I'll start looking for AA5744 today and see if that helps.

Also, has anyone had any problems with with an oversized bore? The sabot and bullet enter the rifled portion of the barrel pretty easy and when I put pressure to seat it over the powder I can feel a springback, like it is not staying fully seated on the powder. I was going to try a 28 ga wad to see if they would work or help, but AA pinks are too tight to even enter the loading recess.

There are so many folks who love their Savage I must believe there is something I'm doing wrong or my gun has a problem. It's serial number is 10 90X so it is an early gun...not that is a reason.

I really appreciated the advice and I'll see if I can find 5744 and give it a try.

 

[Anonymous]

Also, has anyone had any problems with with an oversized bore?

Have you used a 300 gr. .452 Hornady XTP in a current formulation short black MMP sabot?

 

[Grouse]

Forget the Wads. 5744 wont solve your problem either. To many people have been shooting the other powders with know problem at all. The bullet springing back off the charge doesnt sound cool at all. Call up Savage Arms and ask for Joe Degrande. Send the gun back and have them check it out for you. Good luck, :wink: and they will make it right for you.

 

[Anonymous]

5744 wont solve your problem either.

Bull. All that is needed is a sabot / bullet combo that lightly engraves on the way down, fitting the bore properly. The misfires are due to loose sabots.

 

[Grouse]

5744 wont solve your problem either.

Bull. All that is needed is a sabot / bullet combo that lightly engraves on the way down, fitting the bore properly. The misfires are due to loose sabots.

5744 is the easiest to ignite powder in Smokeless land for the Savage. That's why i use it. The bullet coming off the charge is not very cool. 250grn SST'S are a very tight loading bullet per 5 MuzzleLoaders here. In fact extremely tight. The Gun has not been fired in three years and it's not worth someone getting hurt over.

 

[Grouse]

Lowrider49, Once your Savage problem is worked out you will love it. My Encore and other MuzzleLoaders have been collecting dust. The Savage is just so much fun to shoot and know Hassle at all.

 

[smokit]

Lowrider that spring back you are feeling is probably air,which you do have a good seal with sabot to barrel contact.When loading hold the ramrod with steady pressure for a few seconds longer so the air pocket will leak out.Then leave the ramrod in place and bump a few times with the palm of your hand,this drive out even more air.My gun does the same thing ,it's not a bad problem.I also had misfire becuase of this.No misfires since I begain loading this way.

 

[Mountain Man]

Lowrider that spring back you are feeling is probably air,which you do have a good seal with sabot to barrel contact.When loading hold the ramrod with steady pressure for a few seconds longer so the air pocket will leak out.Then leave the ramrod in place and bump a few times with the palm of your hand,this drive out even more air.My gun does the same thing ,it's not a bad problem.I also had misfire becuase of this.No misfires since I begain loading this way.

That also makes me worried that he's loading it with a primer already inserted! :shock: :!:

Make sure you don't ever put a primer in the bolt until after you've loaded the barrel. The easiest way to stay safe in this regard is just like with a centerfire: NEVER CLOSE THE BOLT until the gun is on the rest pointed at the target or until you are seated at the bench.

If the bolt is open, I wouldn't think you should have any issues with compressing a column of air in the barrel. I think it should all escape through the vent liner.

 

[Mountain Man]

The only other thought I have is whether you have been using sufficient charges of the various powders.

DO NOT exceed recommended loads, but you shouldn't go below them, either. It sounds like you may have been a little scared to put a bullet in the gun, so I'm wondering if you were halving your charges or loading them lighter than normal.

With N110 and 250 grain slugs, 38 should probably get you fire if the gun is working right, but I would go to 40 or 41 grains to make sure that's not the problem. Better yet, a 300 grainer and 40 grains of N110. If you don't get fire, something is wrong with either the primers, the batch of powder, or the gun. I doubt all those different powders you tried all have problems, but I bet you used the same pack of primers with all the different powders, right? :wink: Get a new pack and try them, preferable Federal 209A or Winchester 209s. CCI 209M is supposed to be good, too, but I've never tried them. Buy a different brand than the ones you have been using.

Quick thought: You're not using the Remington KleanBore primers, or ones labeled Remington 209(4), are you? They are the same physical size, but have a MUCH lower explosive charge. They aren't nearly as reliable for smokeless in a big bore like the Savage has.

With IMR 4198 and 250 grain XTPs or SSTs, I would not go below 65 grains. (Nor more than 5 grains or so higher!) Lower than that would probably fire if there's not a problem with your gun , but it would be beginning to pressure starve the load. I think the guy that wrote the "About.com" article used 50 grains--but just as one would expect, he got bad accuracy with this weight bullet and such a light charge.

I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on for that recommendation, but there it is.

Until you are certain that there is no problem with the gun and it is functioning normally, I would NOT use Wonder Wads, subbases, 28 guage wads, etc. I prefer to just not shoot loads that require them anytime, but I surely wouldn't go complicating questions and safety concerns when things already aren't working as they should.

 

[Anonymous]

If the bolt is open, I wouldn't think you should have any issues with compressing a column of air in the barrel. I think it should all escape through the vent liner.

Yes, sir-- good tip, the bolt should always be open during loading.

Sabots do not just "spring off" a powder charge. A witness mark insures you are loading properly and consistently shot-to-shot.

What sabots come with SST's are anybody's guess. SST's have not been on the market for three years, nor have current formulation MMP black sabots.

What is the assembled outside diameter of the bullet / sabot combination you tried? :?:

 

[Lowrider49]

Folks,

Primer goes in last. I'm using Win 209, but since I shoot skeet too, I go thru a bunch of primers and they are not the same lot...I tried some old ones and some new ones...same story.

SAbot and bullet (.452) combined is 0.506". The easy load part is 0.508" and near as I can tell the land to land distance is 0.484", but I can't be real accurate without slugging the barrel.

I just tried Hornady black sabot (high velocity) and a Rem 300 gr HP over 33 grains of 2400 and it went bang three times in a row!!! Wife was taking a nap and she is now PISSED...such is life.

This is the first time I have gotten 3 shots without a poof. The sabot and bullet measure 0.509" and are a lot tighter than the MMPs when I seat them in the barrel. The MMPs are probably 2 years old. Is there any chance (not likely) the plastic can shrink?

Once nap time is over, I will try somemore and see if changing the sabot did the trick....I'll advise.

Thanks so much for all the advice and ideas!!!!!

 

[TGinPA]

When I first set up my MLII, I had much the same experience as you are having with misfires. After months of messing around, I finally figured out that the cleaning routine I was using was fouling the bore with enough oil to cause misfires. The bore really has to be dry when you load. Otherwise, as members of this board made clear to me, residual oil in the barrel can and will cause uneven ignition and misfires. Hope this helps....