Side Lock vs Inline?

[THBailey]

I know there are lots of variables, but has anyone compared chronograph numbers between a sidelock and an inline everything else being equal? That is, same day, same projectile, same powder charge, same twist and barrel length? I hunt with a TC Black Mountain Magnum and it sure seems to go bang pretty darn good. Thanks.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

As a matter of fact, I have. Sort of.
The load is my go to. A 250 grain 45 cal Hornady XTP in a Harvester Crush Rib sabot over 70 grains of 3f Swiss lit by Remington 11s.
From my 24 inch stainless ( 1-38) TC Firehawk- 1575 fps
From my 28 inch blued ( 1-48) Hawken 1544 fps
In the past that load got 1565 fps from a blued 26 inch (1-28) TC Black Diamond XR. Nipples for all rifles are Ampco ( Treso) #11.
In all these rifles, actual shot to shot variations in velocity never exceeded 10 fps.
Hope this helps.

 

[THBailey]

Well thanks for the info. Sure doesn't look like that whitetail out to 150 yards could tell any difference! The Black Diamond and Firehawk were touched off with #11 caps. I wonder how 209 ignition might change the numbers?

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Won't do anything except crud up the action more.
I actually gained 100 fps when I switched from the " flame thrower" nipple to a single aperture. Accuracy improved too.
Its my experience that with Holy Black and most subs, that the best accuracy comes with the least powerful primer consistent with uniform ignition. A 209 will get the charge moving up bore before full ignition. Not good for load density...
Put a patch on a jag and run it down bore. Pop a 209 and see how far it shoves that rammer! Neck, I once dry balled a Lee REAL in my Diamond and cleared it with 3 musket caps! Forgot my ball puller...

 

[Dave951]

As a matter of fact, I have. Sort of.
The load is my go to. A 250 grain 45 cal Hornady XTP in a Harvester Crush Rib sabot over 70 grains of 3f Swiss lit by Remington 11s.
From my 24 inch stainless ( 1-38) TC Firehawk- 1575 fps
From my 28 inch blued ( 1-48) Hawken 1544 fps
In the past that load got 1565 fps from a blued 26 inch (1-28) TC Black Diamond XR. Nipples for all rifles are Ampco ( Treso) #11.
In all these rifles, actual shot to shot variations in velocity never exceeded 10 fps.
Hope this helps.

Looking at your numbers, there's about 30ish fps at the muzzle ,so downrange, I'd say there's no significant difference and the deciding factor should boil down to accuracy.

I've been using musket caps for all my rifles and there is a vast difference between the CCI reenactor cap and the RWS.

 

[52Bore]

I've use the same 530gr PP bullet and powder charge of 85gr Swiss 2f in my Knight 500 and my original Rigby match rifle made in 1868 (both 45 1:18). I've never choreographed SxS, but I use the same MOA for both out to 500.
This is the farthest distance at Friendship.

 

[sabotloader]

In my mind there really isn't a significant difference between the two when loaded with the same loads. Where the difference changes is with the twist rate of most inlines allow you to shoot longer bullets and reach stabilization. Even then, there are fast twist sidelock barrels available that really helps equal things.

 

[THBailey]

Won't do anything except crud up the action more.
I actually gained 100 fps when I switched from the " flame thrower" nipple to a single aperture. Accuracy improved too.
Its my experience that with Holy Black and most subs, that the best accuracy comes with the least powerful primer consistent with uniform ignition. A 209 will get the charge moving up bore before full ignition. Not good for load density...
Put a patch on a jag and run it down bore. Pop a 209 and see how far it shoves that rammer! Neck, I once dry balled a Lee REAL in my Diamond and cleared it with 3 musket caps! Forgot my ball puller...

Now that is pretty darn interesting, I had always just assumed the 209 ignition would add some fps to the velocity.

 

[Idaholewis]

When on the Same playing field, setup the Same way, A Sidelock Muzzleloader will Hang with ANY inline Muzzleloader Made.

 

[NatureNick]

I hung out at black powder matches for a few months before buying my first muzzleloader and saw what they can do on paper & steel out to 500 yards in the right hands. I also volunteered as RO/RSO at our club's early fall Open-to-Public Hunter Sight-In sessions, where I got to see folks working up groups with inlines (mostly T/C and CVA products but a few Knights & Whites now and then). And around the picnic table after various events, just about all of the guys & gals who hunted with both sidelock and inline rifles were reasonably consistent in their stories of putting the quarry down well with well-placed shots, and in attributing exceptions to their own human error - not to any limitations on the gear's part. That was scientific enough for me.

In the end, I went inline because it was easier to find one drilled & tapped for a scope mount out of the box within my budget, and my eyes are such that iron sights are not a viable option for me past about 50 yards or in varying light. Also, most of the sidelocks I could find were just too pretty to hack up to get to a 12-1/2" (+/-) length of pull to accommodate my stubby arms, or had such pronounced drop along the comb that I'd have had to add very high cheek rests onto them. I felt better about sawing up plastic stocks on $200-$300 inlines than I did about hacking up fine wood on prettier guns starting at higher prices. But I didn't have a single valid reason for choosing one over the other related to demonstrated performance on paper, steel, or meals-on-the-hoof.

 

[deermanok]

I've owned both over the years. I don't think that one is better than the other, just different. I do favor the sidelock as it holds more of a romantic image of days gone by.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

I don't hate to admit this, but my recent acquisition of a fine pair of TC sidelocks ( a flintlock Renegade and a percussion Hawken) has provided me with my best sidelock experience ever.
Now lately I've taken to feeding them sabots ( GASP) and accuracy is really very good. Nearly as good as my Firehawk. She's my all time favorite muzzleloader.
Prior to these 2 sidelocks, my experience with that type was both inconsistent and disappointing. This includes more than a few TC's too. Guess these 2 had good juju...
I'm looking forward to getting blood on both rifles this year.
Truth be told, as I do not use scopes, I would be hard pressed to say which of my 3 is the truly superior rifle. They all like my favorite load, but the Hawken/ Renegade weigh a ton compared to the Firehawk. Also, the Firehawk has a 1-38 twist which lets me VERY accurately heave 300 grain 45 cal. XTP's down range.
The other two will let me shoot big lead a LOT more comfortably. Plus, the sidelock/ traditional snobs leave me alone. Although my laminate Hawken does cause some odd stares!
I guess one should buy what shoots best, for them, and be content.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have owned 3 inlines, I REALLY Enjoyed all 3 of them. I shot them REALLY well, they felt great, They were DARN NICE MODERN Guns!! I shoot Real Blackpowder Exclusively, it’s what i can COUNT ON to RELIABLY ignite my Target loads. I just got Tired of dealing with all of the little XTRAS At Cleaning Time. There is SO MUCH More going on with the inline Rifles. I had to Remove my Scope after each outing, You have a Trigger Group to Remove and Clean, Almost guaranteed to have Seized Breech Plugs (Even Though they were GOOBERED With Grease) i had to Get them HOT with my Steam Cleaner, then Clamp the Barreled Action Down to a Homemade device i came up SPECIFICALLY for Removing Seized Breech Plugs. Pull the Bolt assembly, Strip it Apart and clean the each piece of the Bolt assembly. I had to Get the Old NASTY Grease out of the Receiver Threads, The Breech Plug itself, and Vent Liner Were OBVIOUSLY Really Nasty and Needed Thoroughly Cleaned. I need a “Bit on a Stick” to Cut the Carbon Crud from the Breech Plug. The Barrel itself needed Scrubbed Clean. The 209 Bare Breech Plugs NEED to be Shimmed for Proper Headspace or you get NASTY Blowback. There is WAY WAY WAY MORE Going on with an inline Rifle LOTS more fiddling around involved

My Sidelocks Shooting the SAME Real Blackpowder on the other hand are SUPER SIMPLE to Clean, Care for. There is just NO COMPARISON! I love the Looks, and Feel of My Sidelocks, And The REALLY Cool part is, When Setup Properly, they Will Shoot EVERY BIT as good as ANY Production inline rifle Made, I have proven that OVER N OVER. My Set Trigger Sidelocks have FAR SUPERIOR Triggers in them than ANY inline i have had in my Hands, It’s not EVEN Close!!

If i were to venture back toward the inlines, i would ANNY UP and Have a Smokeless Rig Built, ALL OUT!! Something i could Sit Down and Shoot a Country Mile with HIGH BC Bullets, With Smokeless I wouldn’t have to Worry about Rushing home and Getting my Rifle Scrubbed Clean, NONE OF WHAT I DESCRIBED ABOVE! They are no Different than a Centerfire, The Difference being You load from the Muzzle instead of Breech. I see the Smokeless Rigs as being FAR & AWAY SUPERIOR to Cartridge Guns, You DON’T have Brass Cases to Deal with, Rifling Lands to “Jump” I see a Smokelss Rig as a WIN WIN!!

If you are gonna Go with a Modern Inline Rifle, Why not Go with a REAL MODERN INLINE RIFLE? Why Stop Short? Sorta like Marrying a SMOKING Hot Gal, and Sleeping in Seperate Rooms

 

[Sideshow]

I have owned 3 inlines, I REALLY Enjoyed all 3 of them. I shot them REALLY well, they felt great, They were DARN NICE MODERN Guns!! I shoot Real Blackpowder Exclusively, it’s what i can COUNT ON to RELIABLY ignite my Target loads. I just got Tired of dealing with all of the little XTRAS At Cleaning Time. There is SO MUCH More going on with the inline Rifles. I had to Remove my Scope after each outing, You have a Trigger Group to Remove and Clean, Almost guaranteed to have Seized Breech Plugs (Even Though they were GOOBERED With Grease) i had to Get them HOT with my Steam Cleaner, then Clamp the Barreled Action Down to a Homemade device i came up SPECIFICALLY for Removing Seized Breech Plugs. Pull the Bolt assembly, Strip it Apart and clean the each piece of the Bolt assembly. I had to Get the Old NASTY Grease out of the Receiver Threads, The Breech Plug itself, and Vent Liner Were OBVIOUSLY Really Nasty and Needed Thoroughly Cleaned. I need a “Bit on a Stick” to Cut the Carbon Crud from the Breech Plug. The Barrel itself needed Scrubbed Clean. The 209 Bare Breech Plugs NEED to be Shimmed for Proper Headspace or you get NASTY Blowback. There is WAY WAY WAY MORE Going on with an inline Rifle LOTS more fiddling around involved

My Sidelocks Shooting the SAME Real Blackpowder on the other hand are SUPER SIMPLE to Clean, Care for. There is just NO COMPARISON! I love the Looks, and Feel of My Sidelocks, And The REALLY Cool part is, When Setup Properly, they Will Shoot EVERY BIT as good as ANY Production inline rifle Made, I have proven that OVER N OVER. My Set Trigger Sidelocks have FAR SUPERIOR Triggers in them than ANY inline i have had in my Hands, It’s not EVEN Close!!

If i were to venture back toward the inlines, i would ANNY UP and Have a Smokeless Rig Built, ALL OUT!! Something i could Sit Down and Shoot a Country Mile with HIGH BC Bullets, With Smokeless I wouldn’t have to Worry about Rushing home and Getting my Rifle Scrubbed Clean, NONE OF WHAT I DESCRIBED ABOVE! They are no Different than a Centerfire, The Difference being You load from the Muzzle instead of Breech. I see the Smokeless Rigs as being FAR & AWAY SUPERIOR to Cartridge Guns, You DON’T have Brass Cases to Deal with, Rifling Lands to “Jump” I see a Smokelss Rig as a WIN WIN!!

If you are gonna Go with a Modern Inline Rifle, Why not Go with a REAL MODERN INLINE RIFLE? Why Stop Short? Sorta like Marrying a SMOKING Hot Gal, and Sleeping in Seperate Rooms

Workin on that Real modern 40cal LW job now !!!! Maybe even with a hand rubbed oil 2 toned tiger stripped maple stock so i can still remember its Roots........

 

[Idaholewis]

Workin on that Real modern job now !!!! Maybe even with a hand rubbed oil 2 toned tiger stripped maple stock so i can still remember its Roots........

Some might Think i am anti inline? NOTHING Could be Farther from the Truth!! They are AWESOME Rifles, I REALLY enjoyed Tinkering with them, i learned a LOT about em. I wish Money wasn’t an issue As I’ve stated, i would have an ALL OUT, HEAVY Bench Rest Smokeless inline RIG Built, Something like Hankins “Cyclops” That would MELT the Doors off a .338 Lapua Magnum

Me being a Real Blackpowder Guy, I wish i had known about this Permatex #80632 PTFE Anti-Seize When i had my inlines, it SURE would have made them MUCH easier to Deal with at Cleaning time. If i ever run across a REALLY Good deal on another White Super 91 .451, I would like to have another

 

[Sideshow]

Some might Think i am anti inline? NOTHING Could be Farther from the Truth!! They are AWESOME Rifles, I REALLY enjoyed Tinkering with them, i learned a LOT about em. I wish Money wasn’t an issue As I’ve stated, i would have an ALL OUT, HEAVY Bench Rest Smokeless inline RIG Built, Something like Hankins “Cyclops” That would MELT the Doors off a .338 Lapua Magnum

Me being a Real Blackpowder Guy, I wish i had known about this Permatex #80632 PTFE Anti-Seize When i had my inlines, it SURE would have made them MUCH easier to Deal with at Cleaning time. If i ever run across a REALLY Good deal on another White Super 91 .451, I would like to have another

No Doubt that Permatex #80632 would have been a Game Changer for you !!!! Nothin like it !!!
For a Real modern muzzleloader im not lookin for anything quite That Powerfull !!! Just somethin nice and lite with Attitude to shoot pretty Flat at distance , 400 to 500yds . Kinda like a hot 405 Win or 400 Whelan with some REACH !!!

 

[ihookem]

I bought my 1st muzzleloader in 2002. It is an Encore 50 cal. It too me 200 rounds to figure out what was best and it still is not very good. As for Encores, I dont like them in a muzzleloader. Open the breach and there are springs down there that are very hard to clean. I had it in twice for a cleaning. I will not use my Encore for a muzzleloader ever again unless I get a smokeless barrel. I have a 45-70 barrel made by TC. Why on earth would they make such a light barrel for a 45-70? How dumb, and dumb that I didn't think of it when I bought it. Kicks like a mule, cut my forehead several times from the scope. Its to the point I have no use for this gun. No matter how hard I try, I cant get better than 2" @ 50 yds with a scope. I do that with iron sights on my TC Hawken, with a scope I bet I get 1" or less. I also , for some reason bought a TC Impact for $229 with tax and had a scope too. Shoots about 2" @ 50 yds with a scope. Thought it had to be the scope . Go buy a Leopold 2x7 and I will be shooting 1". No go, and no better. One thing about the Impact , the trigger and springs are not exposed and cleaning it is much easier. I can tell you the Impact barrel cant cost more that 50 bucks. it is rough and quality is low. I hear SO many guys saying they " clover leaf " @ 100 yds with their inlines. I have seen many muzzleloader at the range and they do not ever do better than 2" @ 50 yds . Some will beat me up but I have a hunch they shoot 10 series of 3 shots and get lucky on one 3 shot group and say their gun will clover leaf . That is what I call a " lucky group". On avr. they are not doing very well. I do think the TC Encore is a very good gun for switching barrels from a deer rifle one month, a varmint the next and a target rifle the next month. That is cool but for a muzzleloader, it is terrible . I can clean ,y TC Hawken in 10 min??? and the trigger and springs dont seem to even get any crud in them cause they are sealed and that is how you make a muzzleloader. I might sell my Encore just to get that almost new TC Renegade at a small gun shop up north .

 

[Idaholewis]

No Doubt that Permatex #80632 would have been a Game Changer for you !!!! Nothin like it !!!
For a Real modern muzzleloader im not lookin for anything quite That Powerfull !!! Just somethin nice and lite with Attitude to shoot pretty Flat at distance , 400 to 500yds . Kinda like a hot 405 Win or 400 Whelan with some REACH !!!

NO DOUBT! For hunting, I would prefer a mid weight Rifle. But DEFINITELY SMOKELESS!! I would like to be able to Shoot Real Blackpowder, or The Subs if i chose to? But i know me, i would Shoot Smokeless and NOT Look back, Why Pay BH209 Prices When Smokeless is Cheaper, and SPANKS IT performance wise! Plus Smokeless is NON CORROSIVE (WIN WIN!!) The ONLY reason i would Shoot ANYTHING Besides Smokeless in it, is if it was a Hunt in area that Required it

 

[Ninering62]

I don't hate to admit this, but my recent acquisition of a fine pair of TC sidelocks ( a flintlock Renegade and a percussion Hawken) has provided me with my best sidelock experience ever.
Now lately I've taken to feeding them sabots ( GASP) and accuracy is really very good. Nearly as good as my Firehawk. She's my all time favorite muzzleloader.
Prior to these 2 sidelocks, my experience with that type was both inconsistent and disappointing. This includes more than a few TC's too. Guess these 2 had good juju...
I'm looking forward to getting blood on both rifles this year.
Truth be told, as I do not use scopes, I would be hard pressed to say which of my 3 is the truly superior rifle. They all like my favorite load, but the Hawken/ Renegade weigh a ton compared to the Firehawk. Also, the Firehawk has a 1-38 twist which lets me VERY accurately heave 300 grain 45 cal. XTP's down range.
The other two will let me shoot big lead a LOT more comfortably. Plus, the sidelock/ traditional snobs leave me alone. Although my laminate Hawken does cause some odd stares!
I guess one should buy what shoots best, for them, and be content.

Thanks for your post, my first inline from a side lock .50 Hawken was a Firehawk. Then I sold it when the Thunderhawk came out. I had zero probs or complaints with either. I got myself 2 Omega's after them. I had Omegas for a long time with not one prob or complaint with either one ever. I'd gladly own another Omega is I was to ever shoot .50 again. Kind regards

 

[Sideshow]

NO DOUBT! For hunting, I would prefer a mid weight Rifle. But DEFINITELY SMOKELESS!! I would like to be able to Shoot Real Blackpowder, or The Subs if i chose to? But i know me, i would Shoot Smokeless and NOT Look back, Why Pay BH209 Prices When Smokeless is Cheaper, and SPANKS IT performance wise! Plus Smokeless is NON CORROSIVE (WIN WIN!!) The ONLY reason i would Shoot ANYTHING Besides Smokeless in it, is if it was a Hunt in area that Required it

Yep , we are on the same page with a hunting sml for sure !!! I Dont want it heavy , nor do i see a Need for that either . At least for my purposes in mind .
Decided i kinda want a Big Bored sidelock too . 58 , 62 , 69 a Big one . I never see them . In Michigan "50" seems to be All there is !!! I havent given up on a "Freight Train" !!! Figured a sidelock would be the easy way to have one . Ha !!! Pretty rare i now see .