danwhitejr
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can anyone suggest the starting and max load of vv-n120 with a 250grn. xtp or sst and what the velocity might be? thanks
vv-n120
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I'd start with 60g and expect 65-70 to be your ending point. You can get such great velocity with 44g - 45g VV-110 along with temp insensitivity that only a little velocity increase can be gained with a fair amt greater recoil ; yet pressure for the given velocity should be less than the VV-110 load. I don't think any significant gain will be realized.
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SW said:
That is right, n120 is THE perfect powder for 300 gr bullets. For 250 gr bullets you will get much better performance with 4759, n110 or 5744.
IMO, for single powder loads a good 300 gr bullet with n120 will perform as well or better than 250 gr bullet with the faster powders.
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Anonymous
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Savage Shooter said:
Of course I agree with you, Mark, as does Henry Ball-- you name it. THe gun was designed around 300 gr. bullets.
For a similar caliber and bullet design, a 300 grain bullet at the same or less MV strikes your animal with more force at all ranges, has better sectional density, and has greater wounding potential as a result. The automatically higher BC gives you free benefit of less velocity erosion, less wind drift, both that offer easier precise field shot placement. It is hard to beat.
danwhitejr
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thanks for the info , I will get some n110 and try to work up a load that works in my gun. does anyone have the velocity for the min. load and max load?
I have 3 10-ML2s, with owner's manuals. All 3 owner's manuals state: 41 and 44.5g VV-110 for both 250 and 300XTPs. Below which is a note "To determine the best load for your Savage Model 10ML-11, try loading one to two grains more or less of these powders with saboted bullets of similiar weights and diameters." To me, a strict interpretation would give a minimum loading for either a 250 or 300g 452 bullet to be 39-46.5gs VV-110. I don't think a strict intrepretation was intended, at least on the bottom end. The 3 manuals do not have a date anywhere I can find. They are 3 or more years old. I suspect the newer manuals read differently. If these loads are considered dangerous by Savage Arms I would have expected something in the mail - such as an automobile recall - maybe such isn't done with firearms - I don't know.dwhunter said:
My concern would be with velocity variance with temp change. Though I know there are those who disagree with me, but I believe that if the pressure isn't high enough that significant velocity loss will occur as temp drops significantly. Been there and done that. I had great accuracy with 250SST/2015 but it was terribly temp sensitive. It really depends on how much 120 you use. If you get the pressure up to the mid-thirties, likely you won't have much problem. I suspect, but can only guess, that 70+ grains of VV-120 will be required to do such. This isn't a recommendation.Ron S said:
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Anonymous
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SW said:
There is no reason to suspect or guess about anything; the current Savage manual is free for the download:
http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/10MLII.pdf
Peak pressure has nothing to do with velocity loss. If it did, 28 ga. and .410 shotshells would not go bang in cold weather consistently-- with SAAMI pressure limits of only 12,500 PSI and 13,500 PSI.
2015 is far slower than N120, and is not a suitable powder for 250 grain bullets at all. N120 is not well suited for 250 gr. sabots either, as you get a very low burn percentage compared to N110 which is excellent for 250 gr. sabots.
There is no minimum powder charge for the 10ML-II: as all loads are automatically 100% loading density.
I have no desire, nor am I going to get into an argument over my statement and your response; but respectfully, I feel you are very incorrect on this point. Powders have operating ranges over which they perform best. The fact that certain powders are designed or at least work well at certain lower pressures does not take away from the fact that certain other powders perform well in other pressure ranges. When on the low side, excessive velocity change does occur with varying temperatures. My view on this is certainly shared by the shooters/service representatives at Sinclair International and others.RandyWakeman said:
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Anonymous
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SW said:
Sinclair International sells "Reloading Equipment,Cleaning Products,Rifle Rests/Bags/Bipods, Scopes and Accessories,Books/Videos/Software, Mugs, Caps and Accessories"-- they manufacture no powder. Would you really leave it to them to define propellants rather than senior ballisticians?
Your "view" is not shared not by Senior ballisticians that do this for a living, and burn more powder in a week than most will in their lifetimes-- you can check with Western Powder, ATK, Vihtavouri, ADI, etc. The hot / cold tests are part of powder evaluation. What has already been clinically defined and proven does not beg for speculation.
The fundamental flaw is the premise of peak pressure having anything to do with temperature sensitivity. A peak pressure node lasts only a millisecond of a millisecond-- and has nothing to do with the entire pressure curve.
There are general rules of thumb for pressure requirements to sustain consistent ignition. They are 2000 PSI for single base extruded rifle powders, and 5000 - 6000 PSI for ball powders. Max. or peak pressure has nothing to do with it, but not falling below the minimum needed pressure does.
To say that you might "need to get the pressure up into the mid-30s" is simply without basis.
A quick look at mid-range .45-70 Government 300 gr. loads shows familiar propellants like H322, H4198, Reloder 7, 2400 - - - H322 and H4198 being slower powders than N120. Max. pressures are 16,000 - 18,000 CUP. Does anyone believe these loads are somehow extremely "temperature sensitive?"
There is no reason for any speculation at all-- sometimes, just pulling the trigger answers all the questions in one big hurry. No special temp. considerations have ever been observed with N110 and 250 gr. bullets, N120 and 300 gr. sabots, or 5744 with either one. Why look for problems where none are known to exist? :?
Nonsense like this simply adds to the ever-growing list of needless, unproductive urban legends that get foisted around the Savage.
One is you need to lap your barrel-- a bit nutty when I know most shoot MOA or better @ 100 yards untouched.
One has to be technically incompetent to suggest duplex loads-- all you are doing is mixing powders, dangerously so. Ask the world's foremost reloading authority, Hartmut Broemel, about the intelligence of that.
The sabot moves off the charge due to "hot primers"-- well, all sabots move off the charge prior to ignition. They have to; any breechplug has air in it that must disrupt the sabot before fire gets there. It has nothing to do with accuracy; air does not cant a sabot.
POI shift-- another one that is often speculated, never defined. I've never seen it, in fact my Knight Disc Elite and Austin & Hallecks that are held together by a single bolt, having only one recoil lug have never ever shown it. Go figure.
Peak pressure has nothing to do with velocity loss. If it did, 28 ga. and .410 shotshells would not go bang in cold weather consistently-- with SAAMI pressure limits of only 12,500 PSI and 13,500 PSI.
2015 is far slower than N120, and is not a suitable powder for 250 grain bullets at all. N120 is not well suited for 250 gr. sabots either, as you get a very low burn percentage compared to N110 which is excellent for 250 gr. sabots.
There is no minimum powder charge for the 10ML-II: as all loads are automatically 100% loading density.[/quote]
I still question certain "givens" concerning the 10-ML2 usage. The "clerks" at Sinclair International" are far more than salesmen: they are accomplished, passionate competitive shooters who are extremely knowledgable shooters. The Sinclair technical hotline representative(a benchrest shooter as well as high power shooter), a Seirra Ballistics Hotline representative , and Jim Borden were all given the following question today: "With 100% case loading when pressures are reduced say fom 35,000psi progressively down to say 20,000psi what would happen to the velocity spread between a load at 80 degrees verses 20 degrees?" They all answered that it would greatly(2 responders) or at least increase(1 responder). IOWs there would be an increased velocity difference between the 2 temps. They all went on to say that powders operate at their best when in their normal operating ranges for pressure and velocity loss is the most common result in dropping pressure of the load. I, too, have observed this in both reloading cartridge guns and especially with the 10-ML-2.
Now with this in mind what is the ideal powder wt for the 10-ML2 - 40gs,45gs 60gs 80gs? How about the ideal powder wt for a 30 cal 165NBT? Just what is best for that bullet - period? According to the Nosler #4 loading manual and every other manual it depends on the cartridge capacity. The cartridge capacity is dependant on what chamber of the gun. The chamber is the choice of the buyer of the gun. I will pick the chamber of my 10-ML2. I will choose the velocity of the bullet by picking the powder speed/wt and keep the pressure at close to a predetermined value. I can keep the pressure essentially static while greatly varying velocity by my powder choice. All the following are with the 165NBT:300 Sav N-140 44g 2492'/sec; 308 Win IMR-4350 50g 2792; 30-06 RL22 63g 3002'/sec; 300H&H H-4350 70g 3168'/sec; 308 Norma Mag RL 19 3158'/sec; 300 win Mag RL22 79g 3290'/sec;30-378 H 50BMG 116g 3333'/sec. Which is the correct load for the 165NBT? All of them are the correct loads! Granted some of these cartridges have somewhat different max pressures but the principle is that as case volume goes up, the slower powders are used and velocity goes up.
When Toby initially worked up loads, he basically set 50gs as the upper powder wt regardless of bullets used and the comparatively weak sabots as the limiting factors. Initial loads were 34gs 2400, etc. As comparison with reloading manuals for the large straight wall cartridges was made it became apparent that the way to greater speeds with a given projectile was with slower powders in larger quantities. Rick Bibby's Pressure Traces have very effectively shown that very high velocities can be obtained with pressures that don't even approach book load pressures. Is VV-120 suitable for 250g bullets? Absolutely, if used in adequate quanty. Now don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating that the book loads are bad - I think they are great. They have enough pressure to be relatively temp insensitive and give respectable velocity BUT they are not the only answer. If the slower powders are used I firmly believe enough pressure needs to be obtained to get a good powder burn and to not be overly temperature sensitive. These are just my thoughts as well as others. I am open to anyone showing where any invalid assumptions/perceived facts are in this approach to loading for smokeless MLers.
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Anonymous
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How are bottle-neck cartridge loads remotely relevant to 10ML-II saboted loads? Do you have any goal here at all?
The answer is simple: just shoot through a chronograph.
Other than that, if you want to guess, then guess. If you really want to know-- there is a such a very, very easy way to find out. Nothing beats pulling the trigger.
As it is, nothing to date shows any warranted concern about temperature with N110 / 250 gr. sabots, N120 / 300 gr. sabots, or 5744 with either one. Surely there are far better things to do than chase mythical velocity losses never observed.
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