Weighing Powder

[Ka'imiloa]

Some good comments here! I'd like to add that volumetric measuring can vary too. If you set five or six measures at a given charge, say 90 gr. of any given BP, and then weigh them, you will find that they vary by as much as 4-5 grains in the actual charge they throw. So for accuracy at a match, or longer hunting ranges, be sure you use the same measure that you used to work up the load.
And if you want the best accuracy, you must pour the powder, and "shave" off the top with either the pivoting nozzle or a straight edge like the back of your knife just the same each time, while holding the measure vertically.
You should also roll your powder can over and over with your hands before you start to pour from it, if you travel at all getting to shooting spot or match, because vibration will gradually settle the "fines" to the bottom. If you don't do that, your powder is getting stronger and stronger in effect (from a given volume) as you get closer and closer to the bottom of the container.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[SDK]

I like doing both as a double check. Literally just had a potential issue over the weekend. I ordered these Elk brand charge tubes from Amazon and tried them this week.



They are marketed as “muzzleloader charge tubes” and have volume gradations marked on the sides. I filled one of the tubes up to the 100 grain mark with BH209.



The charge looked a bit big to my eyes so I broke out my Hornady powder scale, calibrated it and double checked the accuracy of the markings. Came up with this:



By my calculation that is a greater than 120 grain charge and slightly beyond the max recommended capacity of my rifle. I then triple checked with a brass powder measure I have, and sure enough, I was getting a volume of 120ish grains.

Besides being a good reason to cross reference powder charges, let this also serve as a warning to anyone else considering using this brand of tubes. I know that charge tubes are not normally perfect, but this seems excessively bad.

 

[eekjellander]

I just added enough powder to bring the scale back to zero.

Not one heavy or light rifle bench shooter that I know weigh their powder charges and not one pistol shooter either.

Those who weigh, weight their balls.

That there is the 2nd silly thing you've said ,Try for 3 and you to can be consistent . But don't pat yourself on the back keep looking and not weighting , and missing ! /Ed

 

[birdog]

I like doing both as a double check. Literally just had a potential issue over the weekend. I ordered these Elk brand charge tubes from Amazon and tried them this week.

View attachment 37087

They are marketed as “muzzleloader charge tubes” and have volume gradations marked on the sides. I filled one of the tubes up to the 100 grain mark with BH209.

View attachment 37088

The charge looked a bit big to my eyes so I broke out my Hornady powder scale, calibrated it and double checked the accuracy of the markings. Came up with this:

View attachment 37089

By my calculation that is a greater than 120 grain charge and slightly beyond the max recommended capacity of my rifle. I then triple checked with a brass powder measure I have, and sure enough, I was getting a volume of 120ish grains.

Besides being a good reason to cross reference powder charges, let this also serve as a warning to anyone else considering using this brand of tubes. I know that charge tubes are not normally perfect, but this seems excessively bad.

I would never use those tubes or any like it to measure a load. Your weight means nothing unless you want to weigh out each load. The only thing to remember is never exceed 120gr/v in a BP only barrel. If 120gr/v is your target load then it matters not one bit what the finished weight is. 120gr/v or under is all you need to worry about.

Repeatability is key. I determine what my target volume is. I then weigh that volume charge and then drop powder set just under that weighed amount. I then use a trickler to get to my desired weight which is again based on the volume measurement obtained initially.

The only issue I see is you are inconsistent and you are focused unnecessarily on a finished weight. Search the recent threads on this issue which are numerous.

I use one of these to measure volume. It is easy to repeat and there really is no need to weigh unless of course you want to.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Hunter-Flask-Powder-Measure-A1334

 

[anonymouscowherd]

Really? Then why do all competitive shooters weigh their charges?
There might not be that much of a difference with black powder but when you get into the higher velocity subs like T7 and bh209 then there is enough difference in accuracy between weighing and throwing volume charges that a shooter can see.

If you have a powder that meters well through your measure/thrower, and if you've set the measure/thrower up properly and confirmed the weight it is throwing, then ... most reloaders are throwing by volume

Of all the reloading I've done, I've only hand-weighed each round when building 300bo subs using 5744 - it is too chunky and goes thru my measure like #9 birdshot. So for those I have a scoop that gets me within 1gr and then I trickle the rest and watch the scale.

 

[Bill V]

I like doing both as a double check. Literally just had a potential issue over the weekend. I ordered these Elk brand charge tubes from Amazon and tried them this week.

View attachment 37087

They are marketed as “muzzleloader charge tubes” and have volume gradations marked on the sides. I filled one of the tubes up to the 100 grain mark with BH209.

View attachment 37088

The charge looked a bit big to my eyes so I broke out my Hornady powder scale, calibrated it and double checked the accuracy of the markings. Came up with this:

View attachment 37089

By my calculation that is a greater than 120 grain charge and slightly beyond the max recommended capacity of my rifle. I then triple checked with a brass powder measure I have, and sure enough, I was getting a volume of 120ish grains.

Besides being a good reason to cross reference powder charges, let this also serve as a warning to anyone else considering using this brand of tubes. I know that charge tubes are not normally perfect, but this seems excessively bad.

Maybe not so bad. With my current lot of BH209, that would equal to 107grV.

 

[bronko220002]

If you have a powder that meters well through your measure/thrower, and if you've set the measure/thrower up properly and confirmed the weight it is throwing, then ... most reloaders are throwing by volume

Of all the reloading I've done, I've only hand-weighed each round when building 300bo subs using 5744 - it is too chunky and goes thru my measure like #9 birdshot. So for those I have a scoop that gets me within 1gr and then I trickle the rest and watch the scale.

That may be true for some powders like a ball powder or pistol powder but here we are talking about black powder substitutes like BH209 and Triple 7 and the like. Also if you try to volume measure some extruded smokeless powders your weights will vary and not because your thrower isn't set up properly either.
And if you went through all the posts on this topic we are not talking about shooting 100 or even 200 yards with a muzzleloader like the average shooter does. We are talking about consistency here for the guys that shoot extreme distances (600+ yards with a muzzleloader)
Even with a center fire rifle a variance of 0.3 gr can cause groups to open up considerably. This has been proven time and time again.

 

[DavidAR10T]

When I first started MLing with a brand new NEF Sidekick, I used T/C tubes marked for T7. I learned to hate T7anydagnabitthing and those NEF orange 209 primer holders. Then, for tickles&giggles I read an article about long distance/precision/buffalo silhouette/yada BP competitions. That rabbit hole led me to PR Bullets website and viola! They had a breech plug for the Sidekick that used primed 25ACP brass for Blackhorn 209 powder. I've been drinking the BH209 kewlaid ever since and upgraded to the direct 209 primer breech plug. I only used tubes marketed with the Blackhorn 209 brand name and volume measured the first few years. Now, I weigh to 77gr on a PACT Digital Precision Powder Scale for my NEF Sidekick, T/C Impacts & Impact SBs. My smokeless powder is measured on one of two rigs depending on some particular powders: auto trickler V3 & V4 with its own A&D FX-120i scale.
Almost anyone can be trained to hit "between the eyes". I like being able to pick which pupil.

 

[eekjellander]

When I first started MLing with a brand new NEF Sidekick, I used T/C tubes marked for T7. I learned to hate T7anydagnabitthing and those NEF orange 209 primer holders. Then, for tickles&giggles I read an article about long distance/precision/buffalo silhouette/yada BP competitions. That rabbit hole led me to PR Bullets website and viola! They had a breech plug for the Sidekick that used primed 25ACP brass for Blackhorn 209 powder. I've been drinking the BH209 kewlaid ever since and upgraded to the direct 209 primer breech plug. I only used tubes marketed with the Blackhorn 209 brand name and volume measured the first few years. Now, I weigh to 77gr on a PACT Digital Precision Powder Scale for my NEF Sidekick, T/C Impacts & Impact SBs. My smokeless powder is measured on one of two rigs depending on some particular powders: auto trickler V3 & V4 with its own A&D FX-120i scale.
Almost anyone can be trained to hit "between the eyes". I like being able to pick which pupil.

Close yer eyes and shoot from the rear then you know yer good !!!/Ed

 

[SDK]

I would never use those tubes or any like it to measure a load. Your weight means nothing unless you want to weigh out each load. The only thing to remember is never exceed 120gr/v in a BP only barrel. If 120gr/v is your target load then it matters not one bit what the finished weight is. 120gr/v or under is all you need to worry about.

Repeatability is key. I determine what my target volume is. I then weigh that volume charge and then drop powder set just under that weighed amount. I then use a trickler to get to my desired weight which is again based on the volume measurement obtained initially.

The only issue I see is you are inconsistent and you are focused unnecessarily on a finished weight. Search the recent threads on this issue which are numerous.

I use one of these to measure volume. It is easy to repeat and there really is no need to weigh unless of course you want to.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Hunter-Flask-Powder-Measure-A1334

You quoted me but I’m assuming most of this is directed at the OP?

I don’t trust the tubes either and was pointing out how they are worse than others I have tried.

I was also making the exact opposite point of focusing on one thing. I mentioned that I was double checking how accurate the tubes were with a scale, and then that I triple checked with a good quality brass measure. I was slightly overflowing at the 120 gr setting.

Not sure how getting a weight on a quality scale and cross checking volume with two different methods is focusing on one thing, or being inconsistent. I’m very consistent with my methodology.

 

[SDK]

Maybe not so bad. With my current lot of BH209, that would equal to 107grV.

This is a couple of year old can. My brass measure confirmed just over 120gr by volume.

Is the newer stuff that much denser? I picked up one of the brand new stock a week or two ago. I may pull it out over the weekend to compare.

 

[birdog]

You quoted me but I’m assuming most of this is directed at the OP?

I don’t trust the tubes either and was pointing out how they are worse than others I have tried.

I was also making the exact opposite point of focusing on one thing. I mentioned that I was double checking how accurate the tubes were with a scale, and then that I triple checked with a good quality brass measure. I was slightly overflowing at the 120 gr setting.

Not sure how getting a weight on a quality scale and cross checking volume with two different methods is focusing on one thing, or being inconsistent. I’m very consistent with my methodology.

Your post as presented was not clear to me. I was trying to be helpful as it appeared to me you were advocating using the tubes for volume measuring. You said you had a potential issue over the weekend and then you go on to present what appeared to me to be your issue which was the inconsistencies of a volume measurement with a weighed measurement. It's pretty common knowledge to not use the pre marked tubes to measure loads (not directed at you). For me personally I don't care if some tubes "are worse than others" because I don't use the tubes to measure. They hold my powder and that's it.

To me it's really not a question of "trusting the tubes" because I would never use the tubes to measure, ever. Obviously you can do whatever you want so if triple checking with "good quality brass measure" makes you happy then I'm happy for you. I choose to use a brass measure first, not last. We are all different that's for sure.

I'm confused with your weighed amount of 85.6 and how that is a problem. You stated that 85.6 is greater than a 120gr charge and beyond the max recommended capacity of your rifle. Maybe I'm missing something but depending on your lot number that may or may not be true. It sure looks like from your picture you are below 120gr/v. Did I at least understand that correctly?

Do not go above 120gr/v and you will be good. I apologize if you think I was criticizing you. I'm not trying to be a jerk but your post is confusing to me when squared with your response back to me. No hard feelings at least not from me.

 

[SDK]

Your post as presented was not clear to me. I was trying to be helpful as it appeared to me you were advocating using the tubes for volume measuring. You said you had a potential issue over the weekend and then you go on to present what appeared to me to be your issue which was the inconsistencies of a volume measurement with a weighed measurement. It's pretty common knowledge to not use the pre marked tubes to measure loads (not directed at you). For me personally I don't care if some tubes "are worse than others" because I don't use the tubes to measure. They hold my powder and that's it.

To me it's really not a question of "trusting the tubes" because I would never use the tubes to measure, ever. Obviously you can do whatever you want so if triple checking with "good quality brass measure" makes you happy then I'm happy for you. I choose to use a brass measure first, not last. We are all different that's for sure.

I'm confused with your weighed amount of 85.6 and how that is a problem. You stated that 85.6 is greater than a 120gr charge and beyond the max recommended capacity of your rifle. Maybe I'm missing something but depending on your lot number that may or may not be true. It sure looks like from your picture you are below 120gr/v. Did I at least understand that correctly?

Do not go above 120gr/v and you will be good. I apologize if you think I was criticizing you. I'm not trying to be a jerk but your post is confusing to me when squared with your response back to me. No hard feelings at least not from me.

All good here and nothing taken personally. I think you just read my post too quickly.

I just use the tubes to hold charges. I know the measurements on these are always off to some degree.

What you missed in my first post was that after weighing, I also checked with a good brass measure as well, and both of them showed the charge being over 120 gr.

My point was that you shouldn’t trust any one thing and cross check several ways, which I think puts us in agreement. I also reload so I have access to a good scale and powder trickler.

My second point was that this particular brand of tubes is really off, so just wanted to give everyone a heads up on that.

 

[txhunter58]

“I just use the tubes to hold charges. I know the measurements on these are always off to some degree”

This says it all

 

[WP79Vet]

Just measured some charges of T7 3F for a planned shooting session tomorrow. Just out of curiousity, I measured a 90 grain charge with a TC U-View (clear polycarbon body with a hinged top for leveling the charge), and then weighed it in my RCBS scale. Weight was about 68 grains. Then I adjusted the TC measure to 100 grains, and carefully measured and then weighed 10 charges. Average weight of a 100 grains by volume charge was about 76 grains, and even though I was being as careful as possible, the measured charges varied in weight from about 74.8 grains to about 77.5 grains. I'm guessing that as long as the measuring is done in exactly the same way, with powder that has exactly the same degree of settling (ie the dispensing flask is filled to about the same level, has been shaken the same amount, and so forth, and the measure is filled and leveled in exactly the same way each time), that this is a random error which will lead to larger groups, but not a change in the center of impact of the groups.

On the other hand, I'm guessing that the error in setting a TC U-View powder measure is at least a grain or two, so if the powder measure has been moved since it was last used to measure a given charge, that introduces a systematic variation of up to a grain or two in the resulting measured charges. Because the error is systematic, it would be expected lead to a change in point of impact, but not a larger group size, for two shooting sessions between which the powder measure setting had been changed.

Uncertainty in the weight of a measured charge HAS to affect muzzle velocity and therefore accuracy - group size as well as point of impact. I'm guessing, though, that for hunting ranges of up to 150 yards or so, and for shooting under hunting conditions, the impacts that random and systematic errors in the weights of black powder charges of a grain or two have on accuracy are pretty small compared to all the other things that affect accuracy - especially things like my 66 year-old eyes and my shooting with iron sights!

Nevertheless, I am a firm believer in doing the best that's possible with a reasonable amount of effort, just for the sake of confidence if nothing else. Since I pre-measure all charges before a shooting session or a hunt, doing the pre-measurement with a good scale set-up only takes a few extra minutes, and my scale and trickler are always set up, I plan to weigh all charges in the future, even though I've always used volume measurements in the past.

I'm reading that a 100 grains by volume charge of T7 typically weighs about 70 grains, but I found that the weight of a 100 grains by volume charge of T7 3F was about 76 grains. One would expect 3F to be a little denser than 2F due to the smaller granule size.... could it also be due to water absorption by my T7, which is several years old? Any thoughts or experience with that?

Incidentally, I bought some Elk brand charge tubes to use for holding pre-measured charges. The graduations on my tubes say that my 70 grain by weight charges are 80 grains by volume, versus the 92 or so grains by volume reading of the TC U-View. Hmmm.... I'm betting that the TC U-View is more accurate for measuring by volume than the Elk charge tubes, but it seems worthwhile to calibrate every volume measurement tool with a good scale before trusting it.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I have a habit of over thinking. I weighed my volume charges today to check for consistency. Here is what I did, seems to simple am I missing anything?

I have an old Redding post beam scale. I had about 10 premeasured BH209 loads, 110 grains by volume. I dumped the 1st one on the scale and zeroed it out. I then adjusted all the other loads to that zero. I wish I would have paid attention to the weight, but I didn't. I was more concerned with consistency than what the weight was.

I'm not sure if this will help my groups. Am I missing anything?

So i was re-reading this older post and realized no one pointed out that since you poured all of those to be the same weight as the first load. You only need to rezero the scale at empty(tare weight) then weigh any of the loads, to get your weight.

 

[white eagle]

Weighing powder does not help with accuracy.

yes it does

 

[Squint]

yes i

yes it does

I've wondered about this ever since my days of handloading for rifles starting in 1959 and I've always weighed all of my charges for the best accuracy. I can't understand why it wouldn't make a difference in either black or synthetic, and i do shoot both, so I went and ordered some of those elk brand tubes, they are plastic tubes and I am going to weigh the charges and find out, when spring comes, just what's going on. I've spent a lot of time trying different lubes and weighing my round balls so I pretty well eliminated my problems there. We shall see.

Squint

 

[WP79Vet]

Squint

Please let us know what you find!

 

[Squint]

Please let us know what you find!

WP79Vet.
Greetings. I tell you what, the weather is supposed to be 57 above here come next Wednesday so and I went out tonight and weighed up some charges of 777, that's what I am using in my percussion and I see a fellow posted that it might work in a flintlock so I might try that too, three shots each with a weight charge equivalent to 55 greens of black powder. I hope that makes sense, I use my powder measure set at 45 for 777 and it looks like that weighs about 35 grains on my scale so that's what I will be shooting. I'll do this from a good rest at 50 yards, try to get a picture of it and I'll send it out probably about next Thursday.
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