What’s a decent group size at 100 yards?

[idahoron]

Boy I guess I'm in the minority around here as I would say 1 1/2" group at 100 yards sucks and I would be messing with the powder charge and sabot combo to shrink it down. 3 holes touching at 100 yards is a start.

Ya guys say its good enough for hunting or a kill zone is way bigger but I say in hunting conditions group size can increase substantially so why would I want to start out with a couple inch group. I like knowing that my rifle is capable of putting the hole were I want it when conditions are far from perfect.

I guess it depends if you are using a scope or not. Here in Idaho we are not allowed to use scopes on muzzleloader hunts. We have to use open sights or peeps. So my shooting is always with a peep.We also can't use sabots. So we are using conicals. Are you saying that you can shoot 1" groups all the time with open sights?

 

[45-70]

Boy I guess I'm in the minority around here as I would say 1 1/2" group at 100 yards sucks and I would be messing with the powder charge and sabot combo to shrink it down. 3 holes touching at 100 yards is a start.

Ya guys say its good enough for hunting or a kill zone is way bigger but I say in hunting conditions group size can increase substantially so why would I want to start out with a couple inch group. I like knowing that my rifle is capable of putting the hole were I want it when conditions are far from perfect.

exactly

 

[ported45]

1.5 in is fine,if you use all your guns that shoot a bit more then 1 moa your wasting a lot of guns
There is a lot of center fires that will just barely shoot 1moa.1.5 in is still only 3 inches at 200 yds if you can shoot good that far..not that many animals are shot over 150 yds with a muzzleloader..
Also if you are pitchin your side locks that wont shoot 1 moa or under at a 100 then more then likely you dont own any, very few people can shoot 1moa with a sidelock at that distance even with a peep.

Life's too short to mess with inaccurate guns!

If it can't hold MOA without much tinkering, it gets shipped down the road.

 

[52Bore]

If 100 yards is the max distance and only for hunting pleasure - 3-4” should be good.
Nearly any ML should be capable with little effort - even with a side hammer & roundball.

 

[Far Sighted]

I have lots of work to do! LOL~!

Alright! Today I did some target practice now that ML season is over. Oh! I never got a shot at anything I wanted in deer.

Now for the results of today I am happy to say I did achieve a very good grouping for me.
I was shooting at 50 yards to see how Blackhorn 209 performed after decided to change from pellets.
When I got through messing around my final four shot holes were all overlapping or on top of another right where I wanted them about 1.7" above center.
I will need a Blackhorn breech plug to eliminate hang fires even with CCI 209M primers before I do anymore.

 

[FredB]

1.5 inches is perfectly good for ML. Getting it tighter is also a worthy goal, just because, why not? But a better use of range time might be to get off the bench, and practice more like you will shoot in the field.
1.5" used to be a perfectly good standard for centerfire rifles, off the shelf, with factory ammo. I have a CF now that will print nickel size groups with monotony, but that's just bragging rights. I will be hunting deer, with Idaho limitations on my ML, and I'm fairly happy I got the groups down to 2 inches.

 

[dbowling]

when you start shooting under a inch at 100 yds(consistently) your getting into "custom built" territory and world class shooting..
As said most centerfires are good at a inch or a bit below..guys that say all there muzzleloaders will do under a inch or they junk them should be at Friendship winning medals..

 

[ported45]

when you start shooting under a inch at 100 yds(consistently) your getting into "custom built" territory and world class shooting..
As said most centerfires are good at a inch or a bit below..guys that say all there muzzleloaders will do under a inch or they junk them should be at Friendship winning medals..

Friendship is for winners. I am just a loser that likes accurate guns.

If I can keep it MOA or better from a solid bench, with bags, and no performance pressure, then I fully trust that gun come hunting time with my 2+ MOA wobble without the bench.

I sold a custom 700ML last year for other reasons; not because it wouldn't shoot good. That gun was one that somebody needed to take to Friendship!

By the way, one of the most accurate muzzleloaders I had (my uncle has it right now) was a ThunderHawk rifle (two ramrod ferrules) shooting 90 FFg Goex with .430 300 grain XTP in the T/C Break-O-Way sabots. That rifle will still overlap holes at 100 yards.

 

[jsmuddydogs]

I guess it depends if you are using a scope or not. Here in Idaho we are not allowed to use scopes on muzzleloader hunts. We have to use open sights or peeps. So my shooting is always with a peep.We also can't use sabots. So we are using conicals. Are you saying that you can shoot 1" groups all the time with open sights?

At one time I could but not anymore. If I'm shooting open sights I sight in at 50 were I can still shoot a tight group then hope to be able to see the target at 100.

 

[alternate]

Alright! Today I did some target practice now that ML season is over. Oh! I never got a shot at anything I wanted in deer.

Now for the results of today I am happy to say I did achieve a very good grouping for me.
I was shooting at 50 yards to see how Blackhorn 209 performed after decided to change from pellets.
When I got through messing around my final four shot holes were all overlapping or on top of another right where I wanted them about 1.7" above center.
I will need a Blackhorn breech plug to eliminate hang fires even with CCI 209M primers before I do anymore.

What's a Blackhorn breech plug? If you're having hangfires check for leakage around your 209 primer. The sides should still be shiny after firing with only a black circle around the ignition hole. If the pimers are leaking you have too much headspace for that primer.

 

[GM54-120]

What's a Blackhorn breech plug?

CVA, Western Powders and Lehigh make plugs for CVAs especially for BH209 powder. Larger diameter flash channel and shorter flame path than the OEM plug. You can also get a ASG plug using LRMP modules that should work great for BH209 but that plug cost much more. Good investment though if you like to shoot a lot.

 

[alternate]

CVA, Western Powders and Lehigh make plugs for CVAs especially for BH209 powder. Larger diameter flash channel and shorter flame path than the OEM plug. You can also get a ASG plug using LRMP modules that should work great for BH209 but that plug cost much more. Good investment though if you like to shoot a lot.

WoW, didn't know about special BH209 plugs. My 209 x 50 Encore used to get hangfires below 20 degrees with the factory plug but I shimmed the breech block to get it headspaced properly and the ignition became instantaneous. I never had any other ignition problems but my other guns are smokeless and I headspaced them tight when I built them. No leaks and lock timing like a factory 30-06.

 

[GM54-120]

Its a good guess that most off the shelf MLs are gunna be a bit sloppy on head space. CVA had/has shims for the firing pin bushing that are a permanent fix. You just need to be more cautious when shimming a break action. Too tight and a primer can go off when you snap the action shut. A tiny bit too tight and the hammer wont pull back.

 

[alternate]

I headspace my guns with the exact primer type I'm hunting with because different primers can change things a few thou. I can understand why the factory set the headspace on the loose side as they don't know what primer you're gonna use.

 

[Far Sighted]

Hum! I never had any hang fires with these CCI 209m magnums primers until yesterday in my first BH209 trial. There was a little mist of rain during the shoot and I also put some oil on my flame hole clean out slab. I might have got some moisture in the primer hole. I estimate in all I had about 5 hang fires in those dozen or so shots. I tossed my primers so the review will need to come later.

How would one check the primer for excessive headspace? I was thinking about putting a piece of aluminum foil over the back face of the BP then closing the action over the primer to see if the foil changes.

But to prevent cool weather issues I'm going to make a change. I did some research as I wondered why couldn't make mods to the original BP to cure this issue. It appears some have drilled the 0.031 flash hole to 0.035" and increased the 3mm flame hole to 0.125" to do it. That is my plan if it fell than I can replaced it with a purchased BH style.

 

[GM54-120]

Why mess around when you can order a Lehigh plug for $26+shipping and it will be there is a few days? I ordered my Knight plug on the 23rd and it arrived yesterday.
https://sskfirearms.lehighdefense.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=308

The OEM CVA plug will give you nothing but grief until its modified the right way. Increasing the flash hole size is just wearing it out faster.

 

[Far Sighted]

There is question I have about a special breech plug with a slightly different hole when all you have to do is increase the size of the hole you have? Wearing it out faster? It is the same material so what is the issue with wear. How many shots are going to wear out stainless steel? I am only enlarging the hole 0.004".

 

[GM54-120]

The larger the hole the more pressure hits the primer. Along with that pressure is hot gas that can cut the face your primer sets against. All you are doing is shortening the life of the breach plug by drilling out the flash HOLE. Just enlarging the flash channel wont help in the OEM CVA plug. It will fill with carbon a bit slower is all you will accomplish. The distance from the primer to the powder is just too long for good reliability.

$26 is nothing for a good breach plug so why fight it? When the vent liner does eventually wear out (around .035-.036) its about $5 to replace it.

 

[Busta]

CVA, Western Powders and Lehigh make plugs for CVAs especially for BH209 powder. Larger diameter flash channel and shorter flame path than the OEM plug. You can also get a ASG plug using LRMP modules that should work great for BH209 but that plug cost much more. Good investment though if you like to shoot a lot.

You missed one. Hank's rear sealing direct ignition breech plug. I personally will never load on an unfired primer. I would make a dummy module to load the first shot on, then load on spent primers for the remainder.



https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/cva-replacement-plug-for-the-accura-optima-wolf

 

[GM54-120]

That one i would consider for myself but i find it hard to mention as a good option for new shooters although i love its performance. You should be able to get a dummie at any hardware store with a good bolt selection.