No Vent Liner

Whilst up in the hills today, 5 shots were taken without a vent liner in place. The V2 was loaded with 270g Deep Curl, 110g BH209, green Harvester sabot, and STS primer. The vent liner used for the other 5 shots had a 0.028" flash hole. The chronograph was placed at about 14 yard. Recoil with no vent was noticeably harder. With no vent liner the pressure on the primer was greater, and they mostly leaked soot, and required the use of a leatherman to remove from the breech plug.

That is very interesting, if I'm understanding you correctly you shot your gun with just the 1/8" flash channel? Those results contradict your earlier test where the smaller flash hole gave you a greater velocity at the same distance.

Actually, i used the plug with the 5/32" flame channel. This in effect makes the flash hole be 5/32". It did indeed result in the most velocity. However, do you, in order to achieve maximum velocity, wish to use a breech plug with a 5/32" flash hole? The primer showed sign of much excess pressure. The primer had to be removed with a leatherman plier tool, no way could i pull them with my finger.

Thus far the results of all these test, has led me to believe that a good breech plug is the plug pictured in the other post with a 1/8" flame channel. This plug should be fitted with a vent liner with a 0.028" flash hole. The chamber on the powder end only need be about half as deep as the BH209 plug now being sold by CVA.

Testing will continue.

Well Ron, I started on this about a year before Sabot Loader did and wasted a lot of time making my own vent liners then started using Savage vent liners I tried it first with the 1/8 then went to the 5/32. I checked velocity but was not really concerned about a few feet one way or the other, I had two main concerns, one was consistency the other was reducing the carbon in the flash tunnel. I have stop experimenting as I have found what I like. I use a 5/32 flash tunnel with a .028 flash hole and it is placed in TC plugs right at the distance that the Omega flash hole was originally.This has given me the best consistency and I can shoot all afternoon with out having to clean the carbon out of the flash tunnel.
I guess it depends on what you want I am sure I could get a bit more velocity but I would prefer the consistency of a tight group.

Lee 9 said:

Well Ron, I started on this about a year before Sabot Loader did and wasted a lot of time making my own vent liners then started using Savage vent liners I tried it first with the 1/8 then went to the 5/32. I checked velocity but was not really concerned about a few feet one way or the other, I had two main concerns, one was consistency the other was reducing the carbon in the flash tunnel. I have stop experimenting as I have found what I like. I use a 5/32 flash tunnel with a .028 flash hole and it is placed in TC plugs right at the distance that the Omega flash hole was originally.This has given me the best consistency and I can shoot all afternoon with out having to clean the carbon out of the flash tunnel.
I guess it depends on what you want I am sure I could get a bit more velocity but I would prefer the consistency of a tight group.

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Lee,

It is my opinion you have settled on the perfect combination for Omega plugs. What you are doing is exactly what i myself do, when working the Omega plug.

This is interesting Ron. I have heard that the reason Knight brazed the ventliner in is because of extreme danger that would be present if someone forgot to install a ventliner. So much for that theory.

flounder said:

This is interesting Ron. I have heard that the reason Knight brazed the ventliner in is because of extreme danger that would be present if someone forgot to install a ventliner. So much for that theory.

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You did read i had to use a pliers to remove them primer. Shooting with a 5/32" flash hole is not a good thing. It seems i read a post by GM54-120 where he mentioned something about patent infringement issues with Savage, is why Knight is forced to braze them vent liner.

We need tomato growing tips.

I always check and double check to make sure the ventliner is in. I always wondered what would happen without it in place so thanks for the test.
Art

flounder said:

This is interesting Ron. I have heard that the reason Knight brazed the ventliner in is because of extreme danger that would be present if someone forgot to install a ventliner. So much for that theory.

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Are you serious? Powder coming down threw the 5/32 flash channel of the plug and laying on top of the primer. Now all/most of the pressure is on top of the primer and on the inside of the breech plug. Did you look at those primers he showed?

You/everybody should read that post and understand how inportant it is to have your ventliner in place. Alot of plugs on the market have removable ventliners, ecspecially the savage and Lehigh plugs. They need to be in place for safety reasons for sure.

Grouse,
Did I somehow make it sound like I was promoting shooting without the ventliner Tom. Get of my case ok. We all know the main reason Knight brazes them in place is because they would rather sell breech plugs then let people have the ability to just buy ventliners for 5 bucks when they need them.

flounder said:

I always check and double check to make sure the ventliner is in. I always wondered what would happen without it in place so thanks for the test.
Art

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Grouse, I guess you must not have read this post.

ONCE i accidentally forgot to install a vent liner in a 45cal. I don't remember if it was the Accura or the Elite but i got the same results as Ron. The primer looked MUCH worse and was a PITA to remove. Actually i think it was the Accura with a modded plug.

The vents Lehigh makes were originally only for replacing worn out Savage vent liners. Since Mr Ball and his son own the patent and Savage pays for those rights, it could have caused some legal issues if Knight used the same vent even if its in a different breach plug.

It probably wasn't an issue when Lehigh was just making aftermarket breach plugs for Knights but once its part of entire production rifles, it might have ended up in a court room.

My opinion is both safety and legal reasons are why they are not removable anymore. Safety has always been part of Knights moto and im sure the new owners didn't want to take any chances with patent infringements either.

If Savage didn't resume limited MLII production, who knows. Maybe Knight and Lehigh might have worked out something with Mr Ball.

flounder said:

Grouse,
Did I somehow make it sound like I was promoting shooting without the ventliner Tom. Get of my case ok. We all know the main reason Knight brazes them in place is because they would rather sell breech plugs then let people have the ability to just buy ventliners for 5 bucks when they need them.

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That is absolutely un-true. Knight must have the ventliner non-removal because as the patent for that feature is owned by another. So Knight is just following the rules that a manufacturer must follow. Infringement can cost a company a lot.

I have to admit that I have no way of knowing the real reason for brazing in that ventliner. I do know that you yourself Pete said it was for liability reasons when this was discussed early last year. Patent infringement never even entered the discussion at that time. I don't have a dog in this fight anyway but I have seen this pattern in many industries.
1. Small shop is able to come up with a better idea than the big company.
2. Big company buys out small shop.
3. The great idea is bastardized to the point that it has no great benefit anymore except to the big company that has got rid of some competition.
This pattern is what upsets me, plus I have always been taught to conserve resources . It bothers me that people will have to discard a whole breech plug when it should be only a small ventliner.

BTW, im sorry to get off topic but Henry Ball passed away January 8th 2012.

http://obituaries.news-record.com/obitu ... =155422926

We have lost another ML pioneer and great American. We have so few left that have greatly improved our lives and hobbies.

May he rest in peace and may God look after his family during these rough times.

flounder said:

I have to admit that I have no way of knowing the real reason for brazing in that ventliner. I do know that you yourself Pete said it was for liability reasons when this was discussed early last year. Patent infringement never even entered the discussion at that time.

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You are correct, we did discuss the liabilty factor of shooting without the vent liner installed, which is something i really never hope to do, nor would I do on purpose. And even then while I knew about the possible patent infringement - i really did not want it to become a topic of discussion as it was then Lehigh on their that might have got caught up. Of course PR Bullets is also making vent liners as well as Randy Wakeman, so I can honestly say that Lehigh was not the first. But I see you can understand why Knight could not take the chance.

I don't have a dog in this fight anyway but I have seen this pattern in many industries.
1. Small shop is able to come up with a better idea than the big company.
2. Big company buys out small shop.
3. The great idea is bastardized to the point that it has no great benefit anymore except to the big company that has got rid of some competition.
This pattern is what upsets me, plus I have always been taught to conserve resources . It bothers me that people will have to discard a whole breech plug when it should be only a small ventliner.

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And back then that was one of our main thoughts. Lee and I discussed it also, why throw a plug away when you can drill it - tap it - and install a $5 vent liner, that will last longer than the plug ever would anyway + the Lehigh Vent Liner design offers several improvements for the ML shooter. (IMO)