Lyman is out of the Muzzleloading Firearms Business.

[GM54-120]

He said NO ONE would do it. Well ive done it and i know several others that do it each year....So yes he is dead wrong. I dont get to kill MORE, no one does in my state.

 

[drpatton]

You left out sabots which are legal during the PA Flintlock season. Traditions even sells a 1-28 twist Flintlock.

That doesn't mean it's legal. I'll have to check the current law. It was just a couple years ago, as I stated it.

 

[GM54-120]

Yes sabots are legal during the PA flintlock season.....Look it up.

 

[bronko220002]

Pennsylvania has 2 muzzleloader seasons. The First one in October is "anything goes."
The Second one begins after Christmas and through January. It is still primitive.
Patched round ball or ball-et, primitive (open) sights, and Flintlock.

Sir this is the 2nd time you misquoted PA game laws! Please read up on them. The primitive season is still flintlock only but you can use any projectile, including sabots and you can use aperture (peep) sights.

 

[drpatton]

You left out sabots which are legal during the PA Flintlock season. Traditions even sells a 1-28 twist Flintlock.

The law states single projectile. Sabots used to not qualify under that rule. It's ambiguous. I can tell you, the PA Natural Resources Police, used to look for Sabots to give citations. What it is now..

From PA Code law:
(b) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open or aperture sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

(2) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season, it is unlawful to:

(i) Use manmade materials attached to the hammer or frizzen to create sparks.

(ii) Use telescopic sights.

(iii) Use or possess multiple projectile ammunition or ammunition other than required under section 2322(a)(4) of the act (relating to prohibited devices and methods), except as authorized under section 2525 of the act.

(iv) Use or possess a device or ammunition not provided for in the act or in this subsection, except as authorized under section 2525 of the act.


https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/D...ode/data/058/chapter141/s141.43.html&d=reduce

 

[drpatton]

Sir this is the 2nd time you misquoted PA game laws! Please read up on them. The primitive season is still flintlock only but you can use any projectile, including sabots and you can use aperture (peep) sights.

I just posted the "Law." It stated single projectile. That used to exclude sabots. Now, I don't know. Single projectile is an ambiguous statement.

 

[GM54-120]

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/outdoors/20001015moyerfeat4.asp

In a 4-2 vote, the board gave final approval to the use of any and all single projectile ammunition during flintlock deer hunting seasons in the state. The vote permits flintlock season hunters to use plastic-sleeved slugs and sabots in their muzzleloading rifles.

 

[drpatton]

I just got off of the phone with the Pennsylvania Game Commission. They are now allowed. It was too difficult for the Natural Resources Police to know what is in the barrel, rather than what is on the person.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

You meen like ive done for the last 15ish years. Maybe if you educated yourself about the differences in seasons by state you would see how wrong your statement is. Ours is after firearms and its the exact same tag as firearms. You dont get a separate tag here or any additional tags for using a ML.

I use mine each firearms season whether its my smokeless or my smokers.

I guess i should sell all 20something muzzleloaders since i dont need them anymore. I guess i was wrong thinking that i enjoy the hell out of it.

 

[drpatton]

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/outdoors/20001015moyerfeat4.asp

That is a shame. I'll have to work to repeal it. Primitive Muzzleloader season should be just that. Primitive. Fortunately, I'm not the only one who feels this way and we may be in the majority. Who knows.

The article is from 2000. I know or have heard of individuals being cited for sabots just a few years ago. A used to know a retired Natural Resources Police Officer. I heard all kind of stories.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

You meen like ive done for the last 15ish years. Maybe if you educated yourself about the differences in seasons by state you would see how wrong your statement is. Ours is after firearms and its the exact same tag as firearms. You dont get a separate tag here or any additional tags for using a ML.

I use mine each firearms season whether its my smokeless or my smokers.

I understand what you are saying . In Penna they have regular, ML and then primitive. My point is there should only be a ML season for real traditional ML's, not inlines that have the same capability as a modern rifle within 200yds! They should be required to use that firearm during the regular season. IMHO

 

[Snake Pleskin]

That is a shame. I'll have to work to repeal it. Primitive Muzzleloader season should be just that. Primitive. Fortunately, I'm not the only one who feels this way and we may be in the majority. Who knows.

The article is from 2000. I know or have heard of individuals being cited for sabots just a few years ago. A used to know a retired Natural Resources Police Officer. I heard all kind of stories.

I think Inlines should be made to hunt the regular season, not ML !!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I understand what you are saying . In Penna they have regular, ML and then primitive. My point is there should only be a ML season for real traditional ML's, not inlines that have the same capability as a modern rifle within 200yds! They should be required to use that firearm during the regular season. IMHO

Why should traditional MLs get their own season but not inlines? Because you dont think its fair? You haven't made a rational argument for it yet. All youve said so far is the ML season should be taken away from modern MLs. Why?

 

[bronko220002]

I just posted the "Law." It stated single projectile. That used to exclude sabots. Now, I don't know. Single projectile is an ambiguous statement.

A saboted bullet is considered a single projectile. When they changed the regulation from PRB I called the PGC and they told me "any single projectile you can put down the bore is legal".

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Why should traditional MLs get their own season but not inlines? Because you dont think its fair? You haven't made a rational argument for it yet. All youve said so far is the ML season should be taken away from modern MLs. Why?

It is self evident. the original intent of ML was what, Inlines? I don;t think so. it was for those hunters who wanted to use a traditional ML. It was a seperate season to help level the paying field a bit so they would not be in the field with those using modern arms. Also, using a ML limited the deer taken. good or bad, that was the intent. then Inlines came along and those that couldn't handle a tradition ML went with Inlines. You know this. I am not certain why you are arguing it other than you want to use an Inline. The point is to use "traditionally" styled firearms, making it more challenging, it was not to give hunters anther season to kill deer with a modern firearm, which Inlines are..

 

[drpatton]

A saboted bullet is considered a single projectile. When they changed the regulation from PRB I called the PGC and they told me "any single projectile you can put down the bore is legal".

I called the PA Game Commission. They actually didn't know. I was placed on hold for a while. When the person came back, I was told they are legal.

I understand the argument for sabots and against them. What I don't understand is their interpretation of Primitive. Sabots are not primitive.

The argument used to allow them is "Limiting this hunt to roundballs is akin to telling archers they have to use stone arrowheads." Well, yes, it is. If Bow hunting had a "Primitive" season, it would be stone arrow heads, but they don't. The analogy doesn't work. The logic of the PA Game Commission isn't sound.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I called the PA Game Commission. They actually didn't know. I was placed on hold for a while. When the person came back, I was told they are legal.

I understand the argument for sabots and against them. What I don't understand is their interpretation of Primitive. Sabots are not primitive.

The argument used to allow them is "Limiting this hunt to roundballs is akin to telling archers they have to use stone arrowheads." Well, yes, it is. If Bow hunting had a "Primitive" season, it would be stone arrow heads, but they don't. The analogy doesn't work. The logic of the PA Game Commission isn't sound.

Sabots were used during the Civil War in certain Field artillery as I remember reading?

 

[bronko220002]

There is nothing wrong with being a traditionalist. That is your prerogative. But IMO a sabot is nothing more than a different type of patch that will hold a better designed bullet. You can have a cotton patch, a paper patch or a plastic patch. What is the difference? They each serve the same purpose - to engage the rifling and guide and impart spin on the bullet then drop off when it leaves the muzzle. Most people today use a sabot and use modern bullets with them for more humane kills. I personally like to use paper patched bullets in a couple of my sidelocks. And paper patched bullets have been around for a loooong time.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

It is self evident. the original intent of ML was what, Inlines? I don;t think so. it was for those hunters who wanted to use a traditional ML. It was a seperate season to help level the paying field a bit so they would not be in the field with those using modern arms. Also, using a ML limited the deer taken. good or bad, that was the intent. then Inlines came along and those that couldn't handle a tradition ML went with Inlines. You know this. I am not certain why you are arguing it other than you want to use an Inline. The point is to use "traditionally" styled firearms, making it more challenging, it was not to give hunters anther season to kill deer with a modern firearm, which Inlines are..

I think you are making some assumptions as far as the intent of ML season. If there were no inlines at the time then the regs had to be changed to suit the needs of the growing number of people that wanted to hunt with, at the time, inlines instead of traditional MLs. If there were more traditionalists then inliners, the seasons probably would look different. The rules and regs get made by the majority not the minority. As MLers we are the minority so our seasons get the first cuts. Also it seems like you have a dedicated traditional ML season and want to take away the open ML season? The deer and woods are a resource (renewable but limited) and there are many groups that want access to the woods or deer or whatever, but theres only so much to go around so you and i as MLers have to share our small share of that resource. As hunting(with any firearm) falls out of favor our share will get smaller so we are stuck with having to hunt together, like it or not, until we arent allowed to hunt anywhere except private property. Then you will be able to rule put inlines altogether.

 

[Heat]

Lyman being out of business is not good for the majority of us. Less competition, as has been stated, is not great the industry in general.