120 vs 140 grains Blackhorn 209

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Recently I read a post where the new CVA Rifle is capable of shooting 140 grains by volume .Also the UFs are capable of 150 grains Blackhorn 209. ( by volume) Not positive about the UF . Someone asked if Knight had a comparable gun. Knight does but they are not approved loads. Knight personally told me they tested loads up to 150 grains of Blackhorn 209 out of the Knight 500. ( KNIGHTS APPROVED LOADS IN ANY RIFLE DOES NOT EXCEED 120 GRAINS BY VOLUME OF BLACKHORN 209 !)

Last summer I did a considerable amount of testing loads and bullets at 300 yards. My 2 test guns were the Knight 500 .45 1-18 and the Knight Mountaineer .45 1-20. I used Parker Balistic Extreme 275 and 300 grains.Parker Emax 270 grains .Pittman Accumax 275 , 300 grains and the Pittman Aeromax 300 grains.My loads ranged from 100 to 150 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209. All of my shooting was done off a bench

My findings were that i saw no difference in accuracy shooting loads over 120 grains by volume. In fact out of the Knight Mountaineer .45 1-20 my most accurate loads were aprox 110 grain by volume or 78 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 with a 270 grain Parker Emax. The cheaper 275 grain Parker Balistic Extreme was just as accurate if conditions were good.

My Knight 500 1-18 likes the 300 grain Pittman Aeromax or 300 grain Pittman Accumax with 83 grains Blackhorn 209.

I found that accuracy started to fall off after 85 grains Blackhorn 209 by weight. This was my findings others may differ. After 85 grains of Blackhorn 209 by weight the recoil seems to increase considerable. Also there is huge amount more fouling with the hotter loads(95 grains plus ) I think Encore50 can also confirm this . Jeff Fisk has also accidentally came to my same conclusions. After being forced to lower his loads at Friendship (100 grains Blackhorn 209 down to 84 grains Blackhorn 209 by weight) Jeffs scores has not suffered one bit. In fact the last year Jeff shot some of his highest scores ever.

The only time i found the hotter Blackhorn 209 loads would out preform the more moderate loads were in high wind. Even then the group size would not suffer that much but the hotter loads would not drift as much.

I did all this testing at 300 yards for 2 reasons . One i feel like 300 yards is about my maximum hunting distance with a smoker muzzleloader . I still have plenty of energy with a moderate flight time to the target. Also Friendships longest target in the Manufactures Inline division is 300 meters.

My conclusion even though some rifles are capable of shooting charges over 120 grains by volume i see no advantage . Like previously stated this was my findings im sure others will differ. When these new CVAs are available the new owners may be thankful for a 10lb gun while shooting max loads.

 

[long shot]

Good report Doug , and Thanks

 

[ENCORE50A]

Doug, I have an email from Western that indicates 160grs VOLUME of BH for the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader. The Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress easily handles the same charge. Actually in a second email from Western, they indicate that even heavier charges will not damage the barrels, but found that 160grs VOLUME was the optimum maximum charge. I've said it in many debates over the UF and RUM rifles, just because they are capable, doesn't mean you have to shoot maximum charges. It also doesn't mean that maximum charges are the most accurate. It just scares a lot of people that they're capable of heavy charges, thus many have negative feelings towards them.

Now I'll say the same for the new CVA that we haven't seen in private hands yet. It may be capable of 140grs volume of BH, but one doesn't have to shoot maximum charges, which may or may not provide the best accuracy.

When you consider that darn near 100% of muzzleloader owners are hunters and not competitive shooters, many want the highest speed and maximum energy they can get and remain with good hunting accuracy. Doesn't mean its right or wrong, just what each individual wants.

Good report.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Honestly I have been thinking about that new CVA.,your UF and the Remington Ultimates .My 2 rifles that I tested were 1-18 and 1-20. The Remingtons and UFs are 1-26 ? I bet that is why your rifle( UF) likes Max charges . Also the new CVAs will be 1-22 . With the slower twist they may also like hotter charges while pushing their new 285 grain Power Belt.

With my Knights 1-18 and 1-20 . I know for a fact both guns will shoot as good if not better with reduced loads. The only reason i need to shoot near max loads with my Knight 500 with the 1-18 twist barrel is because of the thicker jacketed Pittman Aeromax that I chose to shoot because of the higher BC. I have to shoot near max charges to allow the bullet to bump into the rifling.( smooth forming my bullets shooting sabotless) If i shoot a thinner jacketed bullet such as a 300 grain BE or 270 Emax then my 500 also likes lighter charges.

Honestly my findings do not mean squat when compared to the Remingtons and CVAs. Those rifles may need hotter charges because of the slower twist. I look forward to seeing some test results.

One nice that I have found with the faster twist Knights. They will shoot my modern high BC bullets as light as 250 grains and as heavy as 350 grains . With moderate Blackhorn 209 charges or Maximum Blackhorn 209 charges both with very acceptable accuracy. Others have proven these 2 twist rates also like heavy lead. I would imagine the faster twist makes these rifles very versatile.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Honestly I have been thinking about that new CVA.,your UF and the Remington Ultimates .My 2 rifles that I tested were 1-18 and 1-20. The Remingtons and UFs are 1-26 ? I bet that is why your rifle( UF) likes Max charges . Also the new CVAs will be 1-22 . With the slower twist they may also like hotter charges while pushing their new 285 grain Power Belt.

With my Knights 1-18 and 1-20 . I know for a fact both guns will shoot as good if not better with reduced loads. The only reason i need to shoot near max loads with my Knight 500 with the 1-18 twist barrel is because of the thicker jacketed Pittman Aeromax that I chose to shoot because of the higher BC. I have to shoot near max charges to allow the bullet to bump into the rifling.( smooth forming my bullets shooting sabotless) If i shoot a thinner jacketed bullet such as a 300 grain BE or 270 Emax then my 500 also likes lighter charges.

Honestly my findings do not mean squat when compared to the Remingtons and CVAs. Those rifles may need hotter charges because of the slower twist. I look forward to seeing some test results.

One nice that I have found with the faster twist Knights. They will shoot my modern high BC bullets as light as 250 grains and as heavy as 350 grains . With moderate Blackhorn 209 charges or Maximum Blackhorn 209 charges both with very acceptable accuracy. Others have proven these 2 twist rates also like heavy lead. I would imagine the faster twist makes these rifles very versatile.

You're most likely right with the heavier charges in the RUM and UF.

I'm betting a cola, that once the CVA gets into a few hands, bullets other than their PB will get used more often.

 

[45-70]

how about this 82 grns. BH209 , 100 yds.

 

[matthew.lashley]

You're most likely right with the heavier charges in the RUM and UF.

I'm betting a cola, that once the CVA gets into a few hands, bullets other than their PB will get used more often.

You're most likely right with the heavier charges in the RUM and UF.

I'm betting a cola, that once the CVA gets into a few hands, bullets other than their PB will get used more often.

does the UF have 209 conversion or factory Breech plug?
I have a carbon stealth and wanna try bh 209
When I contacted ultimate firearms about it they told me absolutely not and that it would blow my gun up
Any advice you can give and and loads would be gratefully appreciated
Thanks

 

[MrTom]

I knew I saw where Doug had posted again. I think its great to read his no-nonsense reports.

 

[fishhawk2700]

does the UF have 209 conversion or factory Breech plug?
I have a carbon stealth and wanna try bh 209
When I contacted ultimate firearms about it they told me absolutely not and that it would blow my gun up
Any advice you can give and and loads would be gratefully appreciated
Thanks

The UF's that are being shot with BH 209 have had the Arrowhead breech plug conversion. Shooting BH out of your stock rifle may not "blow it up" but it will gas cut the stock breech plug. After shooting both systems, unless you like to shoot a lot of paper or want to shoot land rider bullets, I would leave it stock. If you are having trouble with head spacing,(gas leaking into your brass)would be another reason to convert. I will PM you to give you the info.

 

[ENCORE50A]

The UF's that are being shot with BH 209 have had the Arrowhead breech plug conversion. Shooting BH out of your stock rifle may not "blow it up" but it will gas cut the stock breech plug. After shooting both systems, unless you like to shoot a lot of paper or want to shoot land rider bullets, I would leave it stock. If you are having trouble with head spacing,(gas leaking into your brass)would be another reason to convert. I will PM you to give you the info.

Fishhawk is right. If you intend to shoot BH, get the Gen2 upgrade. You WILL have to send the barreled action to Luke, as that breech plug will not come out. Its wedged tightly, which was intentional by UF. Best modification you'll ever make to the original system.

 

[Sideshow]

Doug, I have an email from Western that indicates 160grs VOLUME of BH for the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader. The Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress easily handles the same charge. Actually in a second email from Western, they indicate that even heavier charges will not damage the barrels, but found that 160grs VOLUME was the optimum maximum charge. I've said it in many debates over the UF and RUM rifles, just because they are capable, doesn't mean you have to shoot maximum charges. It also doesn't mean that maximum charges are the most accurate. It just scares a lot of people that they're capable of heavy charges, thus many have negative feelings towards them.

Now I'll say the same for the new CVA that we haven't seen in private hands yet. It may be capable of 140grs volume of BH, but one doesn't have to shoot maximum charges, which may or may not provide the best accuracy.

When you consider that darn near 100% of muzzleloader owners are hunters and not competitive shooters, many want the highest speed and maximum energy they can get and remain with good hunting accuracy. Doesn't mean its right or wrong, just what each individual wants.

Good report.

Youre right about some hunters Encore . My knight bk92 with the Rum barrel/custom ignition , i use 140grV because accuracy is a bit more acceptable to hunt with . Thats as hard as i could push a 275gr in that 7lb scoped mz and reasonably tolerate it even with a harrels sabot brake . It does also buck the wind better hotter as well . The 275be is the slippery-est bullet i use though for long range farm hunts . Recoil is honestly brutal at 7lbs but i like the energy "out there" . It will shoot with a lighter charge but i like the power and accuracy that 140grV has on target much better long range . The difference IS noticeable , it Does help . A duplexed T73f/bh209 load also works but is dirty .

Ive found when they start kickin pretty good most guys/hunters retreat !!! Without a brake.......no thanks , and i like recoil . Id just as soon clear my sinuses myself !!!

 

[Mnt monkey]

I noticed last weekend loading 95 grains by weight and shooting the Paramount when I pulled the trigger in the bottom of my scope visually I could see a lot of hot powder blowing out at the moment of ignition,,it sure seems to me when you get a hundred and twenty grains by volume or 85 grains by weight and higher it's not a very efficient powder burn,, not to mention it's no fun on the bench,,, I still think there is need for a powder besides blackhorn and I am a big fan of Black Horn ,, I love forward-thinking,,if someone could post a video of the hundred forty grains by volume on a 150 lb man's frame,, maybe in slow motion I want to see it whipping his noodle body on the bench,, you're so mean not always!!

 

[Sideshow]

Let me tell ya , at 6'1" and 280 its a good jolt too !!! Its not efficent but the Ruml barrel likes it !!! I just give it what it likes thats all . The duplex has some extra power but way down there its still t7 crud just a little bit . Changes the burn of the bh209 i believe by pressureizeing / hotter ignition of it . A better powder would be welcome though !!! I pack it at 75lb then seat the sabot at 75 lbs too . In effect its like using a much higher pressure of 110lbs in 1 step !!! Eliminates the sabot resistance . It helps . Not bad eh ?? Lol !!!

 

[ENCORE50A]

I noticed last weekend loading 95 grains by weight and shooting the Paramount when I pulled the trigger in the bottom of my scope visually I could see a lot of hot powder blowing out at the moment of ignition,,it sure seems to me when you get a hundred and twenty grains by volume or 85 grains by weight and higher it's not a very efficient powder burn,, not to mention it's no fun on the bench,,, I still think there is need for a powder besides blackhorn and I am a big fan of Black Horn ,, I love forward-thinking,,if someone could post a video of the hundred forty grains by volume on a 150 lb man's frame,, maybe in slow motion I want to see it whipping his noodle body on the bench,, you're so mean not always!!

Brakes are your friend when shooting heavy charges of anything
I haven't shot less than 100grs by weight of BH since I was using production rifles, but I use a brake. Now I will admit I'm starting now to back down to 84grs by weight.... just in case.

It makes me smile every time I hear or read of shooters commenting about the hard recoil when using heavy charges BH. I'd love to see those same shooters shoot an Ultimate with 180grs or 200grs of T7, then explain how bad the recoil is when using BH. Both the UF and RUM are capable of 160grs of BH, DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH PRODUCTION RIFLES CAPABILITIES.

Ok, you wanted to see a video of someone shooting 140grs by volume of BH Now the shooter in the video below is actually shooting 142grs by volume of BH, but is also using the LR Customs T-Rex brake and the Gen2 ignition system from Arrowhead Rifles.
NOTE...… THERE IS NO WEIGHT ON THE SLED HE'S USING. ALSO, THE RIFLE IS A RUM, CAPABLE OF HEAVY CHARGES. DO NOT TRY THIS WITH RIFLES NOT RATED FOR THESE HEAVY CHARGES.
Sorry, can't help with the slow motion

FYI....…. LR Customs is now making direct replacement, high quality brakes for the threaded Paramount rifles and also for the .450 Bushmaster rifles.

 

[mnoland30]

Sideshow, I'm wondering if you are hunting elk. I use 115 gr. 777, and 405 gr. bullets for elk. Everything lighter, I've used, has worked, but not very well. Those big heavy bullets usually drop a cow in her tracks.

 

[Mnt monkey]

It didn't look like that gun hardly moved t,,not right and not fair,, yes I've got to get a break on my Paramount or go back down to my girly charges. For some strange reason though when those bullets getting a hole I don't notice the recoil as much what's up with that?

 

[ENCORE50A]

IMO...…. the T-Rex brake from LR Customs is a complete and outstanding muzzle brake. Many UF and RUM owners, along with many SML shooters are using those brakes.

Here's a video of a T-Rex brake on a Paramount. Maximum charge with the ELR bullet.

 

[WV Hunter]

Ya'll can keep the 120-140, especially with the heavier bullets. I value my nose and eye socket too much.
That lead sled is cheatin!

As someone who is primarily a hunter, and definitely not a long range competition shooter... I see alot of guys that are hunters (and relatively uneducated about BP rifles) going straight to the heaviest load the manufacturer approves. They automatically think "more is better", when it may not be.
My buddy was shooting 150gr T7 in his rifle, until I got with him and we worked up a load. It ended up a good bit lower gave much better groups, if I recall it was around 105 or 110. Substantially less kick, and for him his groups shrunk down by more than half.

 

[Sideshow]

Sideshow, I'm wondering if you are hunting elk. I use 115 gr. 777, and 405 gr. bullets for elk. Everything lighter, I've used, has worked, but not very well. Those big heavy bullets usually drop a cow in her tracks.

No elk just deer . Im a believer in too much gun / power . And i dont slop shoot either . I feel to hit them as hard as i can equals a more humane harvest over a wider range of distances . Dead is dead but quicker is better . I personally value that .

 

[ENCORE50A]

Ya'll can keep the 120-140, especially with the heavier bullets. I value my nose and eye socket too much.
That lead sled is cheatin!

As someone who is primarily a hunter, and definitely not a long range competition shooter... I see alot of guys that are hunters (and relatively uneducated about BP rifles) going straight to the heaviest load the manufacturer approves. They automatically think "more is better", when it may not be.
My buddy was shooting 150gr T7 in his rifle, until I got with him and we worked up a load. It ended up a good bit lower gave much better groups, if I recall it was around 105 or 110. Substantially less kick, and for him his groups shrunk down by more than half.

That lead sled had zero weight on it. I believe I've convinced the owner in the video, to use a rear bag instead.
You're right about new shooters, especially those with the common production rifles. However the rifles designed for heavy charges and when using a brake, are extremely accurate. Just different than most are use to.