Black Powder VS Pyrodex

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CVA Fanboy

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I was wondering of the differences in numbers, NOT word of Mouth, rumor or someones personal dislike of. But true data, real numbers and I just wonder why black powder at all. But I will leave each to his own. I like pyrodex I can get pyrodex easier.
 
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I was wondering of the differences in numbers, NOT word of Mouth, rumor or someones personal dislike of. But true data, real numbers and I just wonder why black powder at all. But I will leave each to his own. I like pyrodex I can get pyrodex easier.

I've tried substitutes in my caplock rifles and 1858 Remingtons, both Pyrodex and Triple 7 and I believed all the rumors and hear say about real black powder being messy, hard to find, needs special cleanup, etc. In my experience, none of that turned out to be true. Traditional black such as Goex has a lower ignition point than all subs rendering the need for magnum caps, musket caps and even 409 shotgun primers mute. Always a softer recoil when using black compared to equivalent amount of substitutes; a push versus a sharp rap. I find black powder easier to measure into one grain levels like 23 grains in my Remingtons, their favorite load. I don't know why that is either. Cleanup; I find that cleanup after or while shooting Goex very easy to do, as is T-7. Pyrodex however, needs more effort and tended to hold more liquid cleaner, oil or water and stick to the metal than just wipe away, leading to misfires and jamming. Yes,I found Pyrodex to be more corrosive over time than Goex.
Last, that real black is hard to find and Goex is everywhere. Traditional black powder is considered by the Feds to be an explosive although it is a low power explosive. Due to that it must be kept locked away in a fireproof container. It also cannot be advertised, so there may only be one employee at the gun sales counter, the manger, that even knows that the store even sells it. I've had sales associates point at the smokeless powder after asking for black powder, to saying "We don't got nuthin' like that!" even after I say that I've bought it there before. Only the manger has a key and you must present an ID and state what you'll be using it for. Just say Muzzleloading and don't get cute or you will wind up on a government list that you cannot see or have a means of getting off of or challenge. It just is, so take my word for it. Anyway, the prices you'll find in stores for any brand of traditional black powder, if they have any, will floor you. It's outrageous, I know, so here's how to buy at better prices. Find a place like Powder Inc. or another black powder dealer and order at least five pounds as the Hazmat fee is the same for shipping one pound or twenty five pounds of powder.
 

Maglide

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I've tried substitutes in my caplock rifles and 1858 Remingtons, both Pyrodex and Triple 7 and I believed all the rumors and hear say about real black powder being messy, hard to find, needs special cleanup, etc. In my experience, none of that turned out to be true. Traditional black such as Goex has a lower ignition point than all subs rendering the need for magnum caps, musket caps and even 409 shotgun primers mute. Always a softer recoil when using black compared to equivalent amount of substitutes; a push versus a sharp rap. I find black powder easier to measure into one grain levels like 23 grains in my Remingtons, their favorite load. I don't know why that is either. Cleanup; I find that cleanup after or while shooting Goex very easy to do, as is T-7. Pyrodex however, needs more effort and tended to hold more liquid cleaner, oil or water and stick to the metal than just wipe away, leading to misfires and jamming. Yes,I found Pyrodex to be more corrosive over time than Goex.
Last, that real black is hard to find and Goex is everywhere. Traditional black powder is considered by the Feds to be an explosive although it is a low power explosive. Due to that it must be kept locked away in a fireproof container. It also cannot be advertised, so there may only be one employee at the gun sales counter, the manger, that even knows that the store even sells it. I've had sales associates point at the smokeless powder after asking for black powder, to saying "We don't got nuthin' like that!" even after I say that I've bought it there before. Only the manger has a key and you must present an ID and state what you'll be using it for. Just say Muzzleloading and don't get cute or you will wind up on a government list that you cannot see or have a means of getting off of or challenge. It just is, so take my word for it. Anyway, the prices you'll find in stores for any brand of traditional black powder, if they have any, will floor you. It's outrageous, I know, so here's how to buy at better prices. Find a place like Powder Inc. or another black powder dealer and order at least five pounds as the Hazmat fee is the same for shipping one pound or twenty five pounds of powder.
I can tell you this, through a chronograph, Pyrodex had more velocity by far than Jim Shockey's powder. I'll do black powder comparison this summer. I couldn't put enough Shockey's powder in the come close to Pyrodex. Interested myself as I've switched to Schuetzen
 

toot

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this subject has been hashed over for so long that it is old enough to vote. PYRODEX is BAD JU, JU. if you are comfortable with it , then by all means go for it. we all have choices. as stated it is not for ROCKLOCKS. jmho.
 

rusticbob

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I agree with Maglide, I had so many failures with Pyrodex and both #11 and musket caps, that I just invested in 5 lbs of real black. Not easy, not cheap, but I want my guns to go bang when I pull the trigger!
 
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I have good accuracy with Swiss BP. Guns always go bang if I do my part. No need to change. Clean up ain't bad and it is readily available.
Not sure what my speeds are. Bet they ain't much different than the Pyro. Prolly not enogh to make a difference.
 
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Another two sense from me. 😉 I tried Pyrodex pellets in my Remingtons because they have a hole on the middle, so the flame from cap will ignite it completely and burn inside to out, or so they say. Think in line. Anyway, since the ripples on a percussion cylinder are in the middle at the rear I figured they might work and be somewhat of time savers when loading. 30 grain, 45 caliber pellets. Okay, they will work, sort of.... This was a time when I was shooting with a SASS club. Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS).
You'd think that the compressed powder the pellets are made of would be less affected by any leftover cleaning solution or oil, but you'd be wrong...
Admittedly, my cleaning/swabbing/wiping up in between stages has changed considerably, in my experience with Pyro pellets will not ignite if fouled in any way or amount. As far as Triple7 goes, I found it satisfactory when used in cartridges where low velocity is desired and only using it in 2f granularity. Why? T-7 burns hotter and is hygroscopic, thus almost as sensitive as Pyrodex. The one and only hang fire I ever experienced happened when using it in a .54 caplock. Coupled with the brass buttplate, the delayed ignition caused me to loosen my grip enough to have about an inch of space between my arm and butt plate, then one of Newton's laws kicked in. I got kicked hard and never used a substitute in my muzzleloaders again.
Now, a word on Jim Schlockey's Gold substitute powder. It's the absolute worst in reliability and velocity. Far more failure to fire instances and always at the low end of velocity tests, and not the so called tests published in the gun rags. Friends whom I trust chronographed it and other subs along with Holy Black. It sux, and I'd gladly use Pyrodex from now on if there were only those two to choose from.

But I'm back to the traditional black powder recommendation, which is to do a little research on where to buy it, local or mail order, how to order in bulk and get the best price and to see for yourself how much better it is for front stuffers and cap -n- ball shooters like us.
 

BP Addict

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Actual numbers can be found in the Lyman and Gun Digest Loading Manuals, by Sam Fadala. However, the measurements presented do not include accuracy.

For myself, I had always shot Pyrodex P in my cap-locks. The reason was it "burned cleaner" with "less pressure" than BP (quotes from "The Black Powder Handbook" by the same author).

When I moved back to Oregon, I couldn't get my guns dialed in. I still don't know the reason why. I switched to BP and the groups shrank. I've been using it ever since.

Walt
 
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Actually found Sean recently he drops about 3 grains black the rest of his load is pyrodex. Grant it priming pan does have to be the 4f. He gets same accuracy and better velocities, but aint none of my business.
Was just at a different gun store in Billings MT, where I was told they had some black. Well they didn't but they did have some of Pioneer powders Jim Shockley gold. Fact is that's only kind of powder they had for muzzleloaders. The fellow told me that it would work in a flintlock. I'm super curious, so I bought a pound for $25. Tried two shots using 50 grains in my flintlock 50 caliber, 4f for priming and they both shot. The second one was a slight delay, noticeable, but they did shoot and I could tell that it should of been more powder to equal what 50 grains of black would do. I will probably use it up in one of my percussions, I want to take my chronograph out and see how it compares to 777, I'm sure that that will be hotter.
Squint
 
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Squint, I wish you luck but it's gotten the moniker of Schlocky's Gold for a reason as it's usually at the bottom of the list for substitute powders. If it works for
you then great, please post your results as we're all ready to learn. Perhaps they've changed the formula in the past 15 years or so? That's certainly possible and to stay competitive it's preferable for such a business. My advice is to keep the container in as dry a place as you can especially after you open it. Don't leave the lid off for long either. If I remember correctly, SG is one of those powders that readily absorb humidity and degrades in power as that happens.
 
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i've used all the substitute powders except for the old Black Mag and BH 209. My cheap old CVA Stag Horn rifle has fired over 3,500 rounds using Pyrodex, the bore looks new.

All the APP powders like a tight fitting sabot/patched round ball seated hard on the powder. One of my longest shots, a hog at a lasered 204 yards, was made using 120 grains of JSG and the 250 grain SST bullet. Never had any problem with moisture, just kept the lid tight on the can.

The newest APP powder is sold under the name of Shooters World Multi Purpose Black FFF. That powder is different from all the other APP powders, it don't smell the same.
 

Philgumbo

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Was just at a different gun store in Billings MT, where I was told they had some black. Well they didn't but they did have some of Pioneer powders Jim Shockley gold. Fact is that's only kind of powder they had for muzzleloaders. The fellow told me that it would work in a flintlock. I'm super curious, so I bought a pound for $25. Tried two shots using 50 grains in my flintlock 50 caliber, 4f for priming and they both shot. The second one was a slight delay, noticeable, but they did shoot and I could tell that it should of been more powder to equal what 50 grains of black would do. I will probably use it up in one of my percussions, I want to take my chronograph out and see how it compares to 777, I'm sure that that will be hotter.
Squint
Triple Seven rocks, and it cleans up super easy. I don't understand all the powder wars here.......I see no reason for it!
 
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Triple Seven rocks, and it cleans up super easy. I don't understand all the powder wars here.......I see no reason for it!
I don't see any powder wars here. Just a group of experienced guys talking about their experiences , likes and dislikes of different powders. That's what these types of sites are all about.
 
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Thought maybe I should relate a little more on my powder story and usage. My experience with my flintlock has been to use black and have never really tried anything else. I do like 777 in my percussions, 2-50s and 1-45. Anyway I attended a shoot not long ago and an old friend told me that this particular gun store in Billings Montana had black. I had to go for a doctors appointment At this city, and wanted to check it out, which I did and found out that he had this Jim Shockley's powder. I had heard a lot about it, had never shot it, and I was quite doubtful about the flintlock use but curiosity had me buy it. I'll guarantee you I've wasted more money than this on some of my muzzleloader experiences that didn't pan out real well. Anyway, I can see it would work in a pinch, though I have never tried Pyrodex or 777 In my flintlock, And they possibly would work also using 4F for priming, And if things work out In the future, and I get a chance, I will try them. When I get a chance, I'm going to try Shockley's in my favorite percussion rifle and chronograph the results.
I just read about the new shooters world multipurpose black, and I wouldn't be surprised if I wouldn't wind up trying that too, I just need to find it someplace.
Squint
 

Philgumbo

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I don't see any powder wars here. Just a group of experienced guys talking about their experiences , likes and dislikes of different powders. That's what these types of sites are all about.
Maybe "wars" was the wrong vocabulary, but you all got my point. I do not own any flintlocks though. To each his own! I just know I've never had a problem with T7, as long as it is kept dry.
 

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