Difference between grams and grains

[txhunter58]

My shots are never past 50 yards where I hunt and that would be a long shot. I hunt very thick woods and thickets.

That’s why I enjoy archery and got away from gun hunting. I started hunting Maryland this year and the type of weapon changes often and you can only use that type weapon during that timeframe. So muzzleloaders are back for me.

Then there is zero reason for you to ever weigh powder. Use volume. I have hunted with muzzys for over 30 years and have never weighed. The furthest shot I have ever taken was 120 yards. Killed an elk with that shot.

 

[DRS244]

Then there is zero reason for you to ever weigh powder. Use volume. I have hunted with muzzys for over 30 years and have never weighed. The furthest shot I have ever taken was 120 yards. Killed an elk with that shot.

Thanks, that made this easy.

However, I did enjoy the other comments and questions because I learned something with everyone’s input.

 

[4stringdude]

@DRS244, It seems that this thread may be settled. I wanted to add, that the same volume of any powder will yield different weights. BP, Pyrodex, T7, will weigh differently for the same volume. Measuring by volume will be the safest way to go.

 

[cook]

I've always thought that real black powder is best measured in volume and that measuring any other way is a waste of time. The granulation of black powder is so irregular and contains so many fines that weighing would just turn out to be very inconsistent while volume is volume is volume.

Is it not also true that weight is weight is weight?

 

[DRS244]

@DRS244, It seems that this thread may be settled. I wanted to add, that the same volume of any powder will yield different weights. BP, Pyrodex, T7, will weigh differently for the same volume. Measuring by volume will be the safest way to go.

Thanks 4stringdude

 

[cook]

@DRS244, It seems that this thread may be settled. I wanted to add, that the same volume of any powder will yield different weights. BP, Pyrodex, T7, will weigh differently for the same volume. Measuring by volume will be the safest way to go.

You could also argue that the same weight of any powder will yield different volumes, no?

 

[snapbang]

converting volume to weight.

1st. you measure out 100 grains by volume of the powder you intend to use.
lets say that 100 grains by volume of T7 is 85 grains by weight.

2nd. so for a desired volume of T7 you multiply by .85 and that gives you the weight of that desired volume.

3rd. Lets say you want to shoot 75 grains by volume of this lot of T7.
you take 75 and multiply by .85 and you get 63.75 grains by weight.

4rth so if you want to be more precise at shooting 75 grains by volume of T7 you could weigh each load at 63.75 grains.

Keep in mind this could change from bottle to bottle and lot to lot.

somebody check this over. Its late.

 

[txhunter58]

You could also argue that the same weight of any powder will yield different volumes, no?

True, but at least with BH 209, the power of each lot is based on volume. So if your load is 105 gr V for your best load, and you weigh that, you might be increasing the power of that same weight in the next lot.

In other words, if you are using max amount of 120 g V, and you convert that to weight, when you get the next lot of powder you could be under powering your load or overpowering it if you use that same weight.

That should also mean that you can’t count on having exactly the same number of loads in each 8 Oz container from lot to lot, since it is sold by weight instead of volume.

 

[Mcgiiver1]

I need to get a scale to measure black powder loads. I’ve never done this before. I have a food scale that measures grams but not grains. What is the difference?

I am just going to say it. Based on the OP's question, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Muzzleloading propellants need to be measured by volume. They are designed that way. The fact that each propellant has a different density, makes measuring by weight SEEM like a good idea, but that is not the basic premise of the manufacturer, volume only. A calculation error in converting grains equivalent by volume to grams, grams to grains, ounces to grains, etc, can, has or will result in potentially harmful results. Get a nice brass black powder measure and use that only, save the scales for smokeless cartridge reloading. The labeling on powder measures, really should say "Grain Equivalents" , not "grains". Assuming 70 grain equivalent of FFFg powder weighs 69 grains, using the same measure for Pyrodex RS, might result in a charge weighing 73 grains. It will rarely be equal to the labeled marking on the measure, but it does not matter if you consistently use that same measure for all your load development.

 

[DRS244]

I am just going to say it. Based on the OP's question, this is a disaster waiting to happen. Muzzleloading propellants need to be measured by volume. They are designed that way. The fact that each propellant has a different density, makes measuring by weight SEEM like a good idea, but that is not the basic premise of the manufacturer, volume only. A calculation error in converting grains equivalent by volume to grams, grams to grains, ounces to grains, etc, can, has or will result in potentially harmful results. Get a nice brass black powder measure and use that only, save the scales for smokeless cartridge reloading. The labeling on powder measures, really should say "Grain Equivalents" , not "grains". Assuming 70 grain equivalent of FFFg powder weighs 69 grains, using the same measure for Pyrodex RS, might result in a charge weighing 73 grains. It will rarely be equal to the labeled marking on the measure, but it does not matter if you consistently use that same measure for all your load development.

I appreciate all the comments. It shows me how passionate you all are about muzzleloaders and safety. I’ve been on other forums that if I asked the same question I might get a few replies at best.

I’m going to stick to volume instead of weight.

 

[GM54-120]

Then there is zero reason for you to ever weigh powder

Not true at all. Since i have a Chargemaster 1500 Combo it makes my life simple to weigh out loads the night before i need them. Simple and not wasting any powder is enough reason for me. I know every load i fire weighs virtually the same. I just push a button until i got all the loads i want and empty the powder hopper when im done.

Last time i checked, we buy powder by the pound or ounces. Never seen it sold by volume.

 

[Pathfinder60]

True, but at least with BH 209, the power of each lot is based on volume. So if your load is 105 gr V for your best load, and you weigh that, you might be increasing the power of that same weight in the next lot.

In other words, if you are using max amount of 120 g V, and you convert that to weight, when you get the next lot of powder you could be under powering your load or overpowering it if you use that same weight.

That should also mean that you can’t count on having exactly the same number of loads in each 8 Oz container from lot to lot, since it is sold by weight instead of volume.

And that is why when moving on to a new lot, I throw 10 charges by volume and then weigh them and average it out to determine what the weight to volume ratio is for that particular lot. To take it a step further, CVA recommends using BH 209 and weighing all charges in all of their Paramount rifles. BH 209 is all I use and I weigh all my charges since it's a nitrocellulose smokeless powder with additives to qualify it as a black powder substitute.

 

[txhunter58]

GM54: Very true but he can also measure out his loads by volume the night before too

So not wasting any of the “black gold” (BH 209) could be accomplished either way.

Yes it is sold by weight! But each new lot of powder has to be measured by volume, then weighed. So I don’t really care what it weighs. Keeping the same weight between lots (without first measuring it by volume) will change your load power/flight/and maybe accuracy?

Unless I am wrong in in my weight to volume statements above.

 

[txhunter58]

And that is why when moving on to a new lot, I throw 10 charges by volume and then weigh them and average it out to determine what the weight to volume ratio is for that particular lot. To take it a step further, CVA recommends using BH 209 and weighing all charges in all of their Paramount rifles. BH 209 is all I use and I weigh all my charges since it's a nitrocellulose smokeless powder with additives to qualify it as a black powder substitute.

And you do a lot more work weighing each new lot. I just keep using volume when I get a new lot and my gun stays shooting the same (with minor corrections).

I can absolutely see weighing if you hunt long range or compete on targets. But he shoots 50 yards. Seems like more expense (scale ect) and time ( weigh all charges) which makes him no real difference when he pulls the trigger on an animal.

 

[Pathfinder60]

And you do a lot more work weighing each new lot. I just keep using volume when I get a new lot and my gun stays shooting the same (with minor corrections).

I can absolutely see weighing if you hunt long range or compete on targets. But he shoots 50 yards. Seems like more expense (scale ect) and time ( weigh all charges) which makes him no real difference when he pulls the trigger on an animal.

Let me be clear. You made the statement that there is never a reason to weigh powder charges. You are mistaken. There is indeed many instances where weighing charges is the correct thing to do. Just because you have no need for it doesn't mean other don't. I don't know why you'd bother throwing charges by volume at all. Throw a couple of pellets down the barrel and a Power Belt and call it good enough. Apparently minute of deer accuracy is good enough for you.

 

[DavidAR10T]

When I have time, I am going to call BH about volume and weight. Last I knew in chemistry and fizzaks was that mass makes for a lot of constant/consistant solution sets. And it doesn't take the integral f(x) by separation of parts to figure this out. BUTT!!! I knew everything as a kid and now my three daughters know everything even though they have at times argued about it.
Yepper, I love this bar.
BTW, I understand Lot # differences with smokeless powders with loads of the same mass.
I just have a visceral feeling that BH 209 Lot differences in almost negligible out to a few hundred yards.
Bet those guys that shoot Bison silhouette worry about V vs W. How long do you have to braise one of them things to get it tender?

 

[txhunter58]

Let me be clear. You made the statement that there is never a reason to weigh powder charges. You are mistaken. There is indeed many instances where weighing charges is the correct thing to do. Just because you have no need for it doesn't mean other don't. I don't know why you'd bother throwing charges by volume at all. Throw a couple of pellets down the barrel and a Power Belt and call it good enough. Apparently minute of deer accuracy is good enough for you.

I never said that. I said there was no reason for the original poster to weigh charges. He is talking about hunting shots well short of 100 yards.

I primarily hunt Colorado where you have to use loose powder. And I like loose. Never used pellets. And you have no choice with BH

Minute of deer? Not true. I get 2” groups at 100 yards with open sights using volume measurements of loose.

 

[txhunter58]

Here is a post I made that discusses my thoughts about weighing BH 209.
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/weigh-bh-209.41877/#post-388915

 

[txhunter58]

But let me be clear too. There is nothing wrong with weighing charges. It is absolutely the method to give you the most consistent results. I may even do it when I retire next year. But it is not necessary for very GOOD accuracy at distances that I hunt.

I have never put a scope on a Muzzy either. Nothing wrong with that either. May do that someday too as my eyes are getting worse each year.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

The volume of powder can change, based on the granulation or settling in the measuring vial.

The weight does not change.

Benchrest shooters carefully weigh out their powder charge.

With the average muzzleloader, both will work. However, there is no doubt about which is more accurate.