Swabbing between shots. A safety question

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Idaholewis

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I received the 442-500 and had a chance to shoot them today along side the 442-380. The 500 appears to simply have a longer bearing surface and a similar or identical ogive. The 380 grain bullet ogive is about 60% of the overall length. The 500 grain bullet ogive is about 48% of the total bullet length. I thought the would shoot very differently because the center of gravity and motion should be in vastly different places. Here is what I found.
View attachment 14467View attachment 14469
I shot the group at just 39 yards. My range has a ditch from 39 to about 90 yards. I used the shorter distance so it should be more reflective of the load than the shooter trying to figure out his soule sight picture. The group size is essentially identical.

I am not sure how much of the group size is due to me. 80 (wt) grains is the only charge and the 45 cal wool wad is the only combo I have tried. I am going to order some 444 diameter bullets and see if the group will improve. Intuitively, I think the 442 shaped ogive should give a higher B.C.
How are you patching your Bullets?

You want to Patch them right up to the Bearing Surface, a very tiny bit Forward (a few thou) is ok, But I don’t advise going anymore forward of it than that


When you come around the Bullet with your 2nd Wrap you want the ends to JUST meet, You don’t want to go ANY past the 2nd Wrap, You are much better off to come up a tiny bit Short like this, I intentionally patch just Short a Few Thou


And lastly the Base, This is how i patch (Referred to as Short Patch) Center of the Bullet Base is Exposed. 1/8 Thick Wool Felt OP Wad on the Powder to Protect the Bullet Base :lewis: MANY times i go Oversize on the Wool Felt (.50 Cal Wool felt in my .45s)
 

carpd

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How are you patching your Bullets?

You want to Patch them right up to the Bearing Surface, a very tiny bit Forward (a few thou) is ok, But I don’t advise going anymore forward of it than that


When you come around the Bullet with your 2nd Wrap you want the ends to JUST meet, You don’t want to go ANY past the 2nd Wrap, You are much better off to come up a tiny bit Short like this, I intentionally patch just Short a Few Thou


And lastly the Base, This is how i patch (Referred to as Short Patch) Center of the Bullet Base is Exposed. 1/8 Thick Wool Felt OP Wad on the Powder to Protect the Bullet Base :lewis: MANY times i go Oversize on the Wool Felt (.50 Cal Wool felt in my .45s)
Lots of good info Lewis!

I have been using my Hankins sizing die and pushing the bullets with paper wrap on them through base 1st. If I understand you correctly, you are resizing before you wrap the bullets. I may just use the Hankin's die and do that. The die has me being a little cautious in that I now see I can only "adjust" it so many times before it will break. I have been looking for a dedicated sizing die like a lee that I can put in my reloading press. Between the slightly unusual size and the state of the universe, I cannot find one anywhere.

I think I am doing the same style of wrapping as you (paper wrapped just up to the ogive and the ends meeting without overlapping) with the exception of the short patch. I was given a quick in person tutorial on patching using a wet patch and was told to lube right before I shoot. I am currently using a dry patch and I am not lubing. I am using the dry patch because all of the info that I have found for muzzleloaders including from you, Ron and a gent from site NLRMA all dry patch. I couldn't tell you the pros and cons of wet vs dry patching or lubing vs non-lubing paper patch bullets. I avoided lubing because of the results I had with swabbing difficulty from the caking with the Ballistol. That experience did cause me to think I might try some synthetic grease used in mountain bike suspension since that stuff is cleaned with isopropyl alcohol. But that will be a while before I do that so I don't get lost in the weeds.

Based on what you had said about bullet bases with regards to accuracy, I did "try" to short patch by just folding the paper over. My paper patch was loose, the bases weren't as nice and clean as you have above and the paper patch seemed to want to fall off. So, I gave up on it for the time being. I will try it again and see if I can figure it out.

I have some onion skin paper from Buffalo Arms that measures closer to 0.015" so I might be able to use that and still fit in my bore with just a thou of resizing with the paper on. And continue to search for a 442 sizing die.

I have been using a 45 wad because I already had them for a 1860 revolver I recently bought. I plan on trying the 50 cal wad and compare it to the 45 cal wad. I just haven't gotten there yet because I like to change one thing at a time if I can.

Thank you for all of the information and your time.
 

Clintster21

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Idaho, I am using the 444/450 BACO' with the 9lb onion skin and running them through a .449 sizing die made by Tom Crone, what a good investment. I pretty much followed the setup you were using in the Knight Mountaineer on YouTube. Have you ever figured out the BC on that bullet or something close I can start with? I was going to chrono and plug in drops at ranges but if you have a starting point that would be helpful.
 

Idaholewis

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Idaho, I am using the 444/450 BACO' with the 9lb onion skin and running them through a .449 sizing die made by Tom Crone, what a good investment. I pretty much followed the setup you were using in the Knight Mountaineer on YouTube. Have you ever figured out the BC on that bullet or something close I can start with? I was going to chrono and plug in drops at ranges but if you have a starting point that would be helpful.
Sorry about the late reply here, i just now seen this.

That .444-450 is a DARN GOOD Bullet (All of the .444s are :lewis:) I have shot the .444-450 quite a bit, & have advised it to Several folks wanting to try Paper Patch. I don’t know the BC of the Bullet? Calculating Lead Bullet BC is something i have never taken the time to learn?
 

carpd

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Idaho, I am using the 444/450 BACO' with the 9lb onion skin and running them through a .449 sizing die made by Tom Crone, what a good investment. I pretty much followed the setup you were using in the Knight Mountaineer on YouTube. Have you ever figured out the BC on that bullet or something close I can start with? I was going to chrono and plug in drops at ranges but if you have a starting point that would be helpful.
I was able to check the BC on the 444-400 today.
- Paper patch with onion skin from BAC and sized with a Hankins adj resizing die to .4485 (bore is ~.449 - .4495).
- 90 gr (wt.) Olde Eynsford 2F.
- Shot 3 shots over a my optical chronograph at a couple separate range trips 10 yards from the muzzle.
Average velocity = 1358 fps, S.D. = 7 fps, E.S. = 15 fps
- Shot 4 shots over chrono at 100 yards.
Average velocity = 1203 fps, S.D. = 10 fps, E.S. = 24 fps (4 shots. 3 were within 2 fps of each other, one was 24 fps faster)
- The 10 yard shots and 100 yard shots are not the same shots.
- Plugged data into my Hornady 4DOF and adjusted muzzle velocity until the 10 yard velocity was the 1358 fps and using trial and error with the G1 B.C. until my 100 yard velocity was the same.
- G1 B.C. = .285

- You could use the formula for calculating the B.C. figuring out the aerodynamic factor with a known B.C. and sectional density. Then, use that aerodynamic factor to figure out the B.C. for the 450 and 500. It won't be perfect, but should be close enough to test with real world numbers.

I will test the 500 gr soon to see what I get, but that should get you started.
 
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MtnWanderer

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Apr 20, 2021
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I used this to blow through the breech. The inside of the clear tube immediately fogged up with condensation. So I stopped doing that as I assumed it was probably wetting my breech. I have blown out a PP bullet from a misfire with it though.

Thank you the response and the warm welcome.
The propellant was the cause. I've flipped a can upside down and used the propellant to find overheated components. It will frost up as it mixes with the moisture in the air.

Used normally you get small amounts of propellant that can cause condensation if the Atmospheric conditions (temp and humidity) are right. Along with barrel temperature.

The rest of what's being discussed is new to me however. Will keep following this.
 

Bad Karma

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You’re correct- BC, velocity, etc.. does not equate to accuracy.
I’ve hosted and shot in nearly 40- 1000yd ML matches over 25years at Oak Ridge. I’ve probably seen it all - and we still are not at the accuracy/scores on a consistent bases compared to the 1860-70’s.
Dave’s PP swaged bullets are good, just be sure to weigh them as well as your powder charges.
Good luck.
Do you have any theories as to why our modern top flight shooters are not besting the scores of those posted a century and a half ago? I have mine but as you say, you’ve probably seen it all in this arena and I have not. I do have a fair amount of long range centerfire experience much of it is almost 60 years old and admittedly perishable (much is lost to my old and faulty memory).
 
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