How to handle BH209 with significantly different volume/weight

[Doc7]

I have consistently found that my bottle of Blackhorn 209 weighs 80 Grains weight to 100 grains volume. I had expected the conversion of 0.7 (though I know it varies somewhat).

I measured FOR MY BOTTLE:
70 grains weight = 88 volume. (0.795 ratio)
97 grains weight = 120 volume. (0.808 ratio.
“Volume” is based on the TC powder measure I show in a photo in this post.

I threw a charge of 84 Grains Weight also and got the same info in the TC Powder Measure, but in my test tube style measure from Thor that shipped with sizing bullets, the volume is from 98 grains to 105 grains depending on how you shake it. This would be a ratio of 0.78 to 0.84.

I weighed out 2 x 80 grain by Weight loads and i was about to go out back and shoot them from my new Accura MR-X, to see on the Blackhorn chart, did it act like a 100 by Volume Load (which I was measuring) @ 1855 FPS for a Hornady SST-ML Low Drag? Or did it act like an 80 Grain by Weight Load (which on their chart would have been approx 114 grains volume) and measure @ 1994 FPS? As I headed out my back door I realized the obvious problem and turned around, came back here to post. My barrel is a 24" and I have no idea what their test was. So a velocity test will give me no useful data to determine what's right.

Why do I care so much? There is an enormous difference if I max myself at 120 Grains Volume (which would be 96 grains weight) by my measuring tools or if I limit to 84 grains weight which would be 105 grains by volume. I had planned to test 3 different bullets and sabots (300 grain .430 scorpion white lightning, 300 grain .451 scorpion gold PT, and 260 grain .451 scorpion gold PT), at 3 loads: 70 grains weight, 75 grains weight, and 80 grains weight. But with my volume conversion, it seems like all of these loads may be severely underpowered vs what they would be if I was going by volume.

How best to proceed?

The manual for the rifle says, "The maximum is 120 grains by volume (84 grains by weight)". But if I only had one measuring type or the other, I would be ending up with very different amounts of powder in the rifle.
120 Volume Measured = 96 grains weight
84 grains weight measured = 105 volume.....

 

[Doc7]

If I average the two possible "maxes" out to 90, and then go for 100 / 120 * 90 (because i normally would shoot 100 grain BP in gun that is rated for 150 so i am not particularly seeking to shoot a max power 300 grain load, and 100 / 120 is even closer to max than 100/150 would be) I get an "Average desired less-power max" of 75 grains by weight which in my bottle and measuring tools would come out to 94 by volume. This is well under either way of measuring the maximum load so will certainly be safe to shoot. I suppose I can work out loads at that 75 grain, and even up to the "worst case" 84 grains (105 volume) and see if i get desirable velocities and accuracies for deer and elk, and only worry about it further if i do not obtain desirable results at the range testing loads of weighed 75, 80, and 84.

 

[45-70]

just weigh 84 grains and who cares what the volume is

 

[ElDiablo]

You may be overthinking this. Sounds like your volumetric measuring isn’t really consistent. It’s true that 120 grV is the max recommended BH209 charge. Certainly, Western/Hodgdon took into account the variances in volume measuring techniques (and added some safety margin) when setting that number. I’d choose a volumetric starting point, say 120 grV, and weigh 10 of those to get an average. Then weigh out some charges if you want to (if you think that is more accurate) and shoot them. Then work your way down in charge weight/volume till you are happy with the accuracy.

By my method, my current bottle (lot 31) is 120 grV = 89 grW.

I don’t usually weigh - I can consistently measure by volume.

 

[10acres]

I did what someone else on here does. I measured out 10 loads of 100g by volume and weighed each one. I averaged those weights and came up with 100g by volume weighed 75-76g. I went with 75g and that’s what I’ll use for this bottle of BH209. When I open a new bottle, I’ll do the same.

 

[10acres]

By the way, 75g weighed shot great out of my CVA Optima V2.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Blackhorn 209.... another post | Modern Muzzleloader Muzzleloading Forum


Bestill Creations thoughts part 3 - YouTube

 

[LHR]

I measure by volume 10 charges, weigh them each and take an average. Then weigh that amount going forward. Also compare with the chrono often to be sure I’m still getting the same velocity that my best load was dialed in for.

 

[hairybird]

just weigh 84 grains and who cares what the volume is

Exactly my most consistent method of all gun powders. Been doing this with Goex, Swiss, T7, and now BH209 for two decades. Very very consistent using this method. Dry powder is another huge factor.

 

[birdog]

just weigh 84 grains and who cares what the volume is

As long as you do not exceed 120 volume. Who cares what the weight is as long as you do not exceed 120 volume. This came direct from Western Powder before they changed hands. I dialed my rifle in by volume and once I found the volume my rifle liked I then weighed it using the 10 drop average as mentioned above. I then weighed all my loads to match that average. When I changed to a different lot number I again measured the volume of powder my rifle preferred and repeated the process of finding the average weight over 10 drops.

 

[rangerod]

Simply weigh each load and shoot. Averaging out a set # of charges is unnecessary and in my opinion doesn't show anything relevant to the issue. Differences in volumes with the same weight charge is nothing but difference in particle size. I've said it lots of times smaller particle size packs tighter and there for would show a lower volume at any particular weight. Conversely a larger particle size would show a greater volume. I've personally always weighed my loads and believe it's the best way to go. I can say that I've not noticed any difference in accuracy going with weighed loads with varying volume measurements. This to me has always been one of the more interesting issues we as muzzy shooters talk about. If you had a number (say five) of different lot # all of varying particle size and didn't mind doing a fair amount of chrono work I'd bet you anything (well............nothing over 10 cents anyways) that you'd find all weighed charges giving the same velocities with no respect for the volume size. These are just my thoughts and what seems to make sense to me.

 

[MrTom]

I believe Doc7 is on the right path assuming the weight/volume ratio as long as he understands two things: 1. each lot of BH209 can weigh differently per given volume and 2. it is not particle size that differs between lots, it's the density of each particle between lots that differs.

BH209 has always been manufactured to be measured by volume like at the true blacks and subs. Unlike those, though, it has superior particle size uniformity through different lots which makes it a good candidate for weighing for those who want more exacting loads. Its the density of each of those particle that w can make each weigh differently. I have three different lots of BH209 and I can pour some from each jug onto a pie plate and study the physical size of the granules from each lot and they are identical. If the particle size is the same the only place that the difference in weight can be is the density of each particle. I can also measure 100 grains of powder from each jug and weigh them separately and see as much as 9 grains of weight between the three. For hunting under 100 yards its unlikely that a difference of that size will matter much but I was brought up on centerfires and weighing charges so that's how I prefer to handle BH209. However, many people simply pour and shoot and for those who see accuracy changing when shooting a new jug of BH209, that density thing should be the firat place they look to resolve the problem.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Lot #39 by Hodgdon is smaller.

 

[birdog]

Encore do you think the smaller size from Hodgdon will be the standard from here on out? Or do you believe the size changes from lot to lot no matter who is making it? I have to wonder if the Western Powder equipment went to Hodgdon or if Hodgdon is making BH with their own equipment which has more to do with the different size from manufacturer to manufacturere. I know the info I received direct from Western Powder before the sale stated because of the inconsisant weight lot to lot to pay attention to the volume and do not exceed 120v regardless of the weight.

I do agree that weighing is unnecessary however like others here I choose to do it anyway.

 

[rangerod]

Sorry MrTom I'm not sure I understand your comment about density. Smaller particles pack with more density because of the fact that they are smaller. It is impossible with changing particle size (from lot to lot) to accurately measure Black Horn by pouring it into a tube. Now that being said it would certainly be the way to go within a lot# that has consistent particle size. The only accurate volume measure across lot# would be to measure surface area (which of course we can't do). In an example I will use 100 grns measure in the tube method of differing lot # with differing particle sizes. The tube with the smaller particle size will have the greater surface area. This is why trying to measure volume inside of a tube with varying particle sizes can't work. Measuring in a tube matters not one iota. The idea considering the circumstances that we can accurately measure differing particle sizes within a tube and achieve accurate measurements is just an illusion. Here again just my thoughts. Weigh all charges forgetting all the gobbledegoop about volume and as shooters we will be fine.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore do you think the smaller size from Hodgdon will be the standard from here on out? Or do you believe the size changes from lot to lot no matter who is making it? I have to wonder if the Western Powder equipment went to Hodgdon or if Hodgdon is making BH with their own equipment which has more to do with the different size from manufacturer to manufacturere. I know the info I received direct from Western Powder before the sale stated because of the inconsisant weight lot to lot to pay attention to the volume and do not exceed 120v regardless of the weight.

I do agree that weighing is unnecessary however like others here I choose to do it anyway.

Honestly, I have no clue on either as in the past I never paid this much attention to sizes. We know that from the beginning of BH becoming available that it varied lot to lot, volume to weight. I have a considerable amount of lot #39 and noticed what I thought was quite a difference in size, thus the other post.

Each of us has our own way of doing many different things. For years I never picked up a volume measure using BH. However, the more conversations I had over it with others who shot many pounds of it each year too changed my mindset. As others have stated in the past, volume always remains the same. If you have a container that is 100grs volume, it doesn't matter if you fill it level with sugar or lead, it's still 100grs volume of both. Of course, one is going to weigh more than the other.

I now use a volume measure set to 120grs. It doesn't matter how much BH I just pour in or rather I tap it down, because when I level it off it's still 120grs by volume. I weigh out 10 to 15 volume charges and average them. From that point, every charge is weighed to that average so every charge I shoot has been weighed for that specific lot number.

For many weighing isn't necessary, but some of us are religious about what we expect in accuracy. For example, you can bet the farm that every person shooting in that 1k match this summer will have weighed their BH


Maybe we'd all be better had Western not given us a conversion ?????

 

[txhunter58]

No one has seem to mention this, but the difference in weight only seemed to start after the powder was sold to Hodgdon. I remember lots of posts before that where people compared volume to weight and it was consistent between lots within a few grains. Seems like Hodgdon is doing things differently. Easy to get around as long as you have an accurate scale. But as a guy who likes the convenience of volume measurements, it’s a pain!

 

[ENCORE50A]

No one has seem to mention this, but the difference in weight only seemed to start after the powder was sold to Hodgdon. I remember lots of posts before that where people compared volume to weight and it was consistent between lots within a few grains. Seems like Hodgdon is doing things differently. Easy to get around as long as you have an accurate scale. But as a guy who likes the convenience of volume measurements, it’s a pain!

Up on post 7, open the Bestill Creations part 3 video. Notice what lot numbers are being used. They are all prior to Hodgdon

 

[txhunter58]

But the OP lists a 12 gr weight difference from what was expected: 84 vs 96. And 105 vs 120 volume diff. That is at least twice the variance in the video by weight and 15 gr by volume! Seems like something changed.

 

[ronlaughlin]

My own experiences with Blackhorn do not indicate anything much has changed since Hodgdon took over. For example lot 33 has virtually the same exact density as lot 41.

There have been plenty of Blackhorn lots back years ago where the ratio between weight and volume was not 0.7 like Western Powders said it was. To achieve consistent volume when a new jug of powder was opened required one to adjust the desired weight.

The OP does seem to be an anomaly.