Newbie In Need of Help Please

[MrTom]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

You can pop three or 4 primers to foul a clean barrel or like I do I just touch off a short charge of about 5 grains packed with some tissue paper out in the back yard after dark. Then I load the gun, but I do not prime it. The gun goes right into a case and I am legal to transport it now to where I hunt. Since I can't see to shoot until daylight I don't waste time putting the primer in the breech until I am in the stand. If I shoot I reload. If I don't get a shot during regular hunting times I pull the primer and do it all over again the next day.....EXCEPT shooting out the charge in the back yard. Just leave the load in the gun.

We can get cold here during the deer season so I leave my gun cased locked in the van which is also in a locked garage. My black powder guns do not come into the house until I am done hunting with them for the season. The 209 powder residue still needs to be cleaned out of guns that have been shot but I think its way less corrosive than true black powder residue or that of T7 or Pyro and guns can stay uncleaned for a week while the season runs. More than anything I would be concerned about the condensation formed by taking a cold gun into a hot house. That's why mine stay in the garage or van or both. Every state has differing laws regarding casing guns and/or black powder guns, but I think its just smart to case them up as a case offers protection against bumps and knock.

 

[Timberelk]

You can pop three or 4 primers to foul a clean barrel or like I do I just touch off a short charge of about 5 grains packed with some tissue paper out in the back yard after dark. Then I load the gun, but I do not prime it. The gun goes right into a case and I am legal to transport it now to where I hunt. Since I can't see to shoot until daylight I don't waste time putting the primer in the breech until I am in the stand. If I shoot I reload. If I don't get a shot during regular hunting times I pull the primer and do it all over again the next day.....EXCEPT shooting out the charge in the back yard. Just leave the load in the gun.

We can get cold here during the deer season so I leave my gun cased locked in the van which is also in a locked garage. My black powder guns do not come into the house until I am done hunting with them for the season. The 209 powder residue still needs to be cleaned out of guns that have been shot but I think its way less corrosive than true black powder residue or that of T7 or Pyro and guns can stay uncleaned for a week while the season runs. More than anything I would be concerned about the condensation formed by taking a cold gun into a hot house. That's why mine stay in the garage or van or both. Every state has differing laws regarding casing guns and/or black powder guns, but I think its just smart to case them up as a case offers protection against bumps and knock.

Thank you for the info! Here in Utah during the hunt, morning can be in high 20s or low 30s but can get all the way up to 60/65 during the day. Should I been concerned leaving the gun loaded (not primed) for extended (3 or 4 days) periods of time? I will follow your recommendation about leaving it in the truck so it is not subject to warm house temp


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[Timberelk]

Went out today for the last time before my hunt starts on Wednesday!

All shots were at 100 yards with 70 grains of weights BH 209, Hornady XTP 300 grains and a harvested rubbed sabot. I think I stumbled upon the perfect load for my gun thanks to you guys!

Shots 1,2,3 were no adjustment to scope
Shot 4 was after 3 clicks to the left
Shot 5 went through almost perfectly the same hole as shot 4
Shots 6,7,8 were after 1 click to the right and after pushing a clean dry patch up and down the barrel 3 times. Not really sure why 6 hit bullseye when the rest of the other shots were nearly perfect elevation wise?

But all in all I'm dead on at 1.5-2.0" high at 100 yards which puts me spot on for my BDC reticle drop circles out to 300 yards.

Any big (mule deer) buck that presents itself at 300 yards and under is getting smoked!

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[MrTom]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

There ya go......just spilling with confidence in that load and gun. That's what gets meat on the table. Have fun, travel safe and good fortune to you!

 

[Timberelk]

There ya go......just spilling with confidence in that load and gun. That's what gets meat on the table. Have fun, travel safe and good fortune to you!

Thank you Tom, you've been a big help! Your help has been appreciated!


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[sawtoothscream]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

told you the 300gr xtp are awesome hammer the hell out of deer as well.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Any big (mule deer) buck that presents itself at 300 yards and under is getting smoked!

I would suggest running the numbers through a ballistics calculator before assuming a 300 yard attempt is a good choice. At that range the XTP may have slowed to the point of poor expansion. FPE is meaningless if the bullet does not perform as designed.

This is why i suggested a hotter load than you are currently shooting. It is also why i mentioned the Parker BE bullet. The 300gr or even the 275gr BE will retain more velocity than the XTP and it expands fairly well at slower speeds. They have been extremely accurate for me as well.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Its not uncommon for the first shot to be a little bit out of the group, some shooters fire 3 primers to condition the bore to simulate a fouled bore, others , myself included, swab the barrel with a patch slightly dampened with lockeze.


May I ask what is lockeze ?

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Just a warning on your 300 grain XTP 70 grains of Blackhorn load . When I first started hunting with Knight rifles back in the early 90s there were 4 of us that bought MK 85s we all shot 250 grain XTPs with 70 grains of FFF. They were extremely accurate and we killed a lot of deer but we never had a blood trail . Well one day my buddy was hunting a corn stubble field he Shot a doe quartering away. We had a heck of a time finding the deer . After field dressing the deer we found the bullet . We literally could of put the bullet back in a sabot and shot the bullet again . Shortly after that my brother had the same thing happen we found another bullet same thing absolutely no expansion . These deer were shot less than 100 yards . Your experience may be different I just thought I should warn you . I have to agree with GM there are better hunting bullets .

I switched everyone to Barnes bullets (250 and 300 grain Expander Barnes bullets) I personally i also like the Barnes XPB line they are pistol bullets that will expand as low as 800 fps and if they are pushed fast worst that can happen is the pedals Fold back . Much much better blood trail with Barnes Expander type bullets. Please don't think I'm bashing your XTP load I'm just giving you my experience . Yours may be different.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Using Hornady's published BC which is probably close and Westerns published velocity for 100grV with a 300gr (averaged but rounded down)

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1850 2280.0 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
50 1655 1825.0 0.9 -1.6 -0.5 0 0 0
100 1479 1457.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
150 1323 1167.0 -4.8 3.1 0.9 0 0 0
200 1194 950.0 -14.6 7.0 2.0 0 0 0
250 1095 799.0 -30.5 11.7 3.4 0 0 0
300 1022 696.0 -53.7 17.1 5.0 0 0 0

Personally i would not assume to get reliable expansion with that load past 200 yards. I would prefer to see impacts stay at 1200fps or more.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

See the difference by just changing the BC to .250 which is far lower than Parkers published BC for the 300gr BE

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1850 2280.0 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
50 1708 1944.0 0.8 -1.4 -0.4 0 0 0
100 1576 1654.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
150 1453 1406.0 -4.3 2.7 0.8 0 0 0
200 1341 1198.0 -12.6 6.0 1.8 0 0 0
250 1242 1028.0 -25.9 9.9 2.9 0 0 0
300 1159 895.0 -44.7 14.2 4.1 0 0 0

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Now .289 which is still less than published but is probably close to actual depending on velocity and conditions

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1850 2280.0 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
50 1727 1986.0 0.7 -1.4 -0.4 0 0 0
100 1611 1728.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0
150 1501 1502.0 -4.1 2.6 0.8 0 0 0
200 1400 1305.0 -12.0 5.7 1.7 0 0 0
250 1307 1139.0 -24.4 9.3 2.7 0 0 0
300 1225 1000.0 -41.8 13.3 3.9 0 0 0

Now you are at over 1200fps with a soft core thin jacket bullet. Chance of reliable expansion has increased by a huge amount

 

[ronlaughlin]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Scott, the problem is the BC of the 300g BE is no where near 0.289. My shooting out to 200 yard indicated the BC is around 0.240. This i determined by the moa up, needed to reach 200. The published BC of the BE bullets is determined with a mv of 2850 fps. Smoker mv is about 1850 -- big difference, which results in the published BC being a way way too optimistic in smoker rifles. Hornady published BC are very accurate for the 300 XTP, perhaps a little low at the elevations, and humidity around here. Too, in my rifles the XTP is slightly more accurate than the BE.

Bullets i know will work out there a ways include the Lehigh CF, the Hornady Monoflex, and the 250g Deep Curl. Doug has me wanting to test the XPB bullets.

It seems to me that 300 yard is a bit far to shoot at animals for standard 50 caliber smoker rifles. Wind is a lot to cope with; it is fun to shoot at steel in the wind, but at an animal it doesn't seem ethical, unless maybe one has very very extensive practice. With practice, a 45 caliber smoker is a maybe a better choice?

☺

 

[ShawnT]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Its not uncommon for the first shot to be a little bit out of the group, some shooters fire 3 primers to condition the bore to simulate a fouled bore, others , myself included, swab the barrel with a patch slightly dampened with lockeze.


May I ask what is lockeze ?

Graphite lube for all type of Locks. Comes in squeeze bottle or spray form.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Scott, the problem is the BC of the 300g BE is no where near 0.289. My shooting out to 200 yard indicated the BC is around 0.240. This i determined by the moa up, needed to reach 200. The published BC of the BE bullets is determined with a mv of 2850 fps. Smoker mv is about 1850 -- big difference, which results in the published BC being a way way too optimistic in smoker rifles. Hornady published BC are very accurate for the 300 XTP, perhaps a little low at the elevations, and humidity around here. Too, in my rifles the XTP is slightly more accurate than the BE.

Bullets i know will work out there a ways include the Lehigh CF, the Hornady Monoflex, and the 250g Deep Curl. Doug has me wanting to test the XPB bullets.

It seems to me that 300 yard is a bit far to shoot at animals for standard 50 caliber smoker rifles. Wind is a lot to cope with; it is fun to shoot at steel in the wind, but at an animal it doesn't seem ethical, unless maybe one has very very extensive practice. With practice, a 45 caliber smoker is a maybe a better choice?

☺

Barnes claims the Original Semi Spitzer .458 300gr at around .290ish although i have no idea at what velocity. I know it comes in at about that around 2300fps according to Savage MLII shooters. I doubt its any better than a .451 300gr BE in this application. I would guess the 300gr BE is at least equal to if not higher than a 300gr SST when shot at smoker speeds. 2000fps is not out of the realm of possibilities at smoker speeds. 1950 fps is not hard at all.

None of the above would be my choice for shots over 200 yards though. The distance game gets expensive fast and what works great at Friendship might not be what works best when the target is alive.

Its my opinion a 45cal can achieve the goal easier and possibly cheaper per shot. Some of the new bullets that just came out show a great deal of promise. I may try to get some and send a couple your way for some "jugging"

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

I have shot a lot of deer with Barnes bullets . In my opinion for hunting they are pretty tuff to beat . They are not a long range bullet . The bullets I'm talking about XPB bullets are a pistol bullet . I have 3 daughters they all hunt and I wanted a bullet that would be low recoil and would preform at low velocities. I had my girls shooting a 200 grain XPB out of 50 cals . They have all killed deer . I shot a buck last year at 160 yards with that same 200 grain XPB . This was out of a .50 cal Encore.

Myself If I was gonna hunt mule deer I would either use the 300 grain Expander (which is a XPB) OR the 290 grain TMZ or the 300 grain TEZ. They all expand very well and retain almost all their weight . This bullet is made to expand . You want to put it through the rib cage not high shoulder shots .( ALTHOUGH that may work well also .) I'm old school I still like to shoot through the vitals and then track. Barnes bullets will give you a good blood trail and no blown up shoulder from a shoulder shot . That's just me everyone is different .

This year I am going to do some experimenting with Kyle Pittmans bullets . They are .021 jacket . I'm gonna use either the 300 grain Accumax or 300 grain Aeromax bullet . Both these bullets will shoot long range . I'm very curious how that .021 jacket will do . I'm hoping it will be just right for a .45 cal shooting a little over 2000 fps . I hate to recommend this bullet until I do some testing at smoker velocities.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

The Barnes Original would be one of my last picks . Again just my opinion . Lots of good bullets out there

 

[ENCORE50A]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

................I have shot a lot of deer with Barnes bullets . In my opinion for hunting they are pretty tuff to beat . They are not a long range bullet . The bullets I'm talking about XPB bullets are a pistol bullet . I have 3 daughters they all hunt and I wanted a bullet that would be low recoil and would preform at low velocities. I had my girls shooting a 200 grain XPB out of 50 cals . They have all killed deer . I shot a buck last year at 160 yards with that same 200 grain XPB . This was out of a .50 cal Encore.

Myself If I was gonna hunt mule deer I would either use the 300 grain Expander (which is a XPB) OR the 290 grain TMZ or the 300 grain TEZ. They all expand very well and retain almost all their weight . This bullet is made to expand . You want to put it through the rib cage not high shoulder shots .( ALTHOUGH that may work well also .) I'm old school I still like to shoot through the vitals and then track. Barnes bullets will give you a good blood trail and no blown up shoulder from a shoulder shot . That's just me everyone is different.............

If the Barnes TMZ or T-EZ would shoot accurately and at long range from my rifle, its the only HUNTING bullet I'd use. I've taken a semi load of whitetail with Barnes bullets, most from Encore platform rifles, all 50cal. Many with the 250gr TMZ bullet, at ranges to 250+ yards.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

The Barnes Original would be one of my last picks . Again just my opinion . Lots of good bullets out there

Neither would i because its a very tough bullet. I was just using it as an example for comparing the BC of bullets with a similar shape. You can buy a similar bullet made by Fury for around $15 less per 50 and the jacket is thinner. Claimed BC appears to be lower but its still much higher than a 300gr XTP.

 

[Timberelk]

Thanks for the bullet input guys, I'll be sure to look into best expanding bullets once my hunt is over. Will report back with results [emoji1360]


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