777 ffg vs BH209

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sdporter

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You're right, the UF rifle breech plugs are non-removable. That whole issue was intentional, because of two reasons, one, it was thought that shooters would damage the threads if the breech plug was removable. The other, was more money was to be made by replacing breech plugs. The breech plug threads wedge themselves into the barrel threads on the UF. Very little fouling continues to get into the threads after its wedged in place, after only a few rounds shot. To remove them, the nipple almost always breaks, then it has to be drilled. Once a hole is drilled in the plug, a large EZ-out is used to remove the remaining threads of the plug. Remington made their plugs much harder, thus removable.
Yes, it ends up being like a sidelock and quite easy to clean.
Okay, so now I’ve got to ask the stupid question.... What is UF? I thought you were talking, and I was looking, at a Remington Ultimate. I evidently missed something somewhere....
 

ENCORE50A

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Okay, so now I’ve got to ask the stupid question.... What is UF? I thought you were talking, and I was looking, at a Remington Ultimate. I evidently missed something somewhere....
Sorry..….. the UF is the Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifle. Most generally referred to as the BP Xpress. Its actually the Remington Ultimate's daddy.
 

Doccbst1

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If you've ever been out hunting and take a shot (miss or kill) and go to reload in the field, and can't load your bullet you might reconsider 777. I'm really not in the mood to swab,or spit patch when I've got an animal on the ground (true story) or maybe in the thicket (true story) with a bullet in him. I always reload immediately after a shot---just in case.
If I did actually miss(I dunno, it's never happened) or misfire (did happn) they'll often come right back out or not even notice a gunshot. Either way, not a time I want to be swabbing, spit patching or hammering down a bullet in a stubborn bore (true story). Most of this was a particular rifle using 777 that I sold after determining the problem and fixing to use blackhorn.
It shot Blackhorn 209 as good as my new one and was as accurate when I sold the rifle.
But bad mojo.
Blackhorn 209 eliminates these problems and easier to clean also, more consistent and a bump in velocity. It's worth every extra dime/dollar to me
 

Squint

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If you've ever been out hunting and take a shot (miss or kill) and go to reload in the field, and can't load your bullet you might reconsider 777. I'm really not in the mood to swab,or spit patch when I've got an animal on the ground (true story) or maybe in the thicket (true story) with a bullet in him. I always reload immediately after a shot---just in case.
If I did actually miss(I dunno, it's never happened) or misfire (did happn) they'll often come right back out or not even notice a gunshot. Either way, not a time I want to be swabbing, spit patching or hammering down a bullet in a stubborn bore (true story). Most of this was a particular rifle using 777 that I sold after determining the problem and fixing to use blackhorn.
It shot Blackhorn 209 as good as my new one and was as accurate when I sold the rifle.
But bad mojo.
Blackhorn 209 eliminates these problems and easier to clean also, more consistent and a bump in velocity. It's worth every extra dime/dollar to me
Good morning. As a black powder shooter that just started using 777, in my new percussion, I don't understand the hard reloading. Would you mind tell me what you use for patch lube? I'm still experimenting for the one I like the best, but a few days ago I shot 15 times, using M.A.P. for a patch lube, and the 15th time was no worse than the second. I've never tried spit patches, I don't have much spit since I quit chewing. 30 years ago, I used 1000+ in a different percussion and it worked fine there. My flintlock didn't perform as well with it so I switched to a different bullet lube. Now I'm doing the same thing again, searching for the lube with the best accuracy and when the weather clears up and warms up again I will go back to experimenting. If I understand it right, Blackhorn 209 does not function well in a traditional percussion, so I've never attempted it. 777 did work just fine there, and years ago, when I used black in my T/C, I had no trouble with misfires just spent more time cleaning than I have to with 777.
Are you shooting it in line?
thanks for reading,
squint
 

Doccbst1

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This a problem with inlines and the 209 primers as far as I understand. I've never had a problem using 777 in my sidelock and all I've ever used after I found out about 777. Before that I used Goex FF, it worked fine also. The triple 7 was just more available and worked.
 

NatureNick

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So, for this guy who's never used loose T7... does the loose powder leave the notorious crud ring, or is that just with the pellets?

And can T7 be used in a sidelock?

I have both #11 and musket cap nipples for my T/C Grey Hawk. Is one of those caps a better choice than the other, with T7 (if T7 is sidelock-friendly)?

I started muzzleloading with an inline and American Pioneer (half a bottle convicted me of the error of my ways), went to Pyro pellets & RS, then got a new rifle & BH-capable breech plug and skipped right to Blackhorn. As a result, I have no experience with anything other than Blackhorn, RS, and APP. And I don't think APP counts anyway.

I'm getting ready to go shoot my Grey Hawk for the first time this spring, and I only have one pound of Pyro RS on hand. I'll probably stick to BH209 in my inlines, but I'm open to the idea that there might be one propellant I can use in both my sidelock and my inline if I ever find myself out of Blackhorn.

For the record, at this time I have no interest in pellets anyway, regardless of the propellant from which they're made. No offense to anyone using them; I consider my reasons for choosing loose powder to be mostly scientific, but they're still just my own preference at the end of the day. I know some guys who are happy with them, just as I'm happy when they have us over for dinner after they pick up their animals from the local locker every winter.
 

Squint

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My experience is probably not that great with T7, but I had no crud ring and I use the loose powder and magnum caps. Someone on here said that the crud ring was caused by T7 and using primer caps as they were so much hotter than what I'm using. So far my experience with T7 has been very good and I do plan on using it extensively in my new traditions percussion. The price is a little higher than black but a lot easier to obtain, and cleanup was a snap. I used a lot of prodex RS 20 years ago and never had any problem with it though I have heard that it's very corrosive. Where I am in Montana humidity is low, when I hunt or target shoo,t and I generally clean every day. All three of my muzzleloaders are of the Hawkins design, so taken the barrels off and cleaning is a snap. I bought them for that reason.I'm not a purist, I just find it challenging to use the products that they did 200 years ago. That is probably only half true because I have better powder, better caps, and I believe better guns. And I haven't slept on the ground for years.
Squint
 

MSalyards

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I tried the 777 in my Knight Bighorn and had the crud ring. It sucked! I was using Musket caps to light it off. Maybe too hot, I don't know. Shot Pyrodex and no more crud ring. Same with reg Black.
 

Rlsmith

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Nov 17, 2015
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So, for this guy who's never used loose T7... does the loose powder leave the notorious crud ring, or is that just with the pellets?

And can T7 be used in a sidelock?

I have both #11 and musket cap nipples for my T/C Grey Hawk. Is one of those caps a better choice than the other, with T7 (if T7 is sidelock-friendly)?

I started muzzleloading with an inline and American Pioneer (half a bottle convicted me of the error of my ways), went to Pyro pellets & RS, then got a new rifle & BH-capable breech plug and skipped right to Blackhorn. As a result, I have no experience with anything other than Blackhorn, RS, and APP. And I don't think APP counts anyway.

I'm getting ready to go shoot my Grey Hawk for the first time this spring, and I only have one pound of Pyro RS on hand. I'll probably stick to BH209 in my inlines, but I'm open to the idea that there might be one propellant I can use in both my sidelock and my inline if I ever find myself out of Blackhorn.

For the record, at this time I have no interest in pellets anyway, regardless of the propellant from which they're made. No offense to anyone using them; I consider my reasons for choosing loose powder to be mostly scientific, but they're still just my own preference at the end of the day. I know some guys who are happy with them, just as I'm happy when they have us over for dinner after they pick up their animals from the local locker every winter.
I use shoot t7 in my 54 grey hawk sometimes it would take 2 or 3 caps to get it it fire so I went with Goex 2f it works great of course it real black. But shoot the t7 and see if it works for you it may
 

Squint

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I use shoot t7 in my 54 grey hawk sometimes it would take 2 or 3 caps to get it it fire so I went with Goex 2f it works great of course it real black. But shoot the t7 and see if it works for you it may
Good morning Rismith. When I considered using T7, research said that there were less problems if you took a regular nipple that is normally bored at .028 and increase the whole size to a .031 or .032. Being one of the cautious types I went up to a .0295 hole size with a wire bit before I ever tried shooting the rifle. I had one misfire out of 15 shots, I believe the hole had plugged, so before I tried it again I ran a wire through the nipple and it fired just fine. I think I might go up one more bit size and see if it will eliminate that problem. I must admit I didn't try shooting it before I Bored out the nipple. Also, I had ordered stainless steel nipples in Lou of the factory nipple which I must admit, I did not measure the hole in. I will do so now before I enlarge the hole anymore. I had ordered two nipples, so in case I want to go to black I have the original size, though I don't understand why the larger hole wouldn't be just as good for black powder either. I know on my flintlock, I had to enlarge the touchhole to get consistent ignition.
Squint
 

snapbang

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Mar 9, 2019
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351
I use loose T7 with 209s in my Wolf inline for conicals and sabots. It does leave a crud ring but I really don't think its that bad. Its my procedure to run a spit patch between shots. Lick one side put the wet side out down the barrel then flip it over to run the dry side down. I can feel the crud ring but with just a stroke or two its gone. Initially I used the breach plug for pellets and shot 30 or so without a problem. Then I went to the plug for loose and found no real difference in ignition, accuracy, or crud ring. For me accurate enough is a tennis ball at 100 yards. Hope that helps.
 

Squint

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Update.
I mentioned before on this site that I was test shooting 777 in a new traditions percussion 50. Being like most muzzleloader shooters,very persistent, in spite of rain showers, I got out yesterday to try my new batch of MAP lubricated patches, my brand-new Williams ghost ring peep site, and even remembered my chronograph. After firing a pre-shot, the next three, at 50 yards all touched horizontally. The problem was, I was 6 inches too high and that took several attempts to get the site down low enough. That William site is on a 45° slide, so it doesn't come down as fast as I thought it would. 50 grains of 777, 176.5 round ball, .015/.018 patch produced an average of 1450 ft./ps recorded at 15 feet from the muzzle. Recoil wasn't bad for a gun that weighs 5-3/4 pounds.
With the peep site setting at the rear site mount, I could not see through the screw in insert and had to remove it. The ghost ring is just adequately thick, was very easy to use. It works better on this gun than my homemade site that sets further back as I can, once again, see through the peep and around the peep at the same time. It took longer to clean up the lock, from the residue caused by the caps, then it did to clean the barrel. Once again I was able to shoot approximately 15 times without patching in between. Now I hope that that upcoming muzzleloader contest, coming up in Glasgow, doesn't get canceled.
Squint
 

sabotloader

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Sir what exactly do you do to diminish the crud ring, I personally don’t mind swabbing between shots, let’s my barrel cool , but that crud ring can be a real pita
Two main things make a very big difference in the build up of the 'crud ring'

1. The hotter the ignition the greater the ring. Example I can shoot 15-20 shots of 120 gr. (v) of T7 with #11 caps and not really ever feel the effects of the 'crud ring' I do not even bother to patch after shots. If you are using 209 primers use the coolest primer you can get. I say that but because to price of the 'special' primers designed for shooting black powder - I use the Winchester W-209. With that primer I can shot 4-5 shots before the 'crud ring' becomes felt and then it is very easy to clear.

2. Do not use any petroleum product in your bore. I would suggest the use of synthetic lubricants this will go a long ways in the reduction of the 'crud ring'. If you have been using a petroleum based product in the bore and switch to synthetic it will still take you awhile to feel the difference.
 

Ninering62

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I use shoot t7 in my 54 grey hawk sometimes it would take 2 or 3 caps to get it it fire so I went with Goex 2f it works great of course it real black. But shoot the t7 and see if it works for you it may
I'm shooting 60 & 70gr bw charges of T7 fff out of my TC Seneca bored to .40 cal fast twist, shooting jacketed 10mm pistol bullets @ 1800+ fps with a standard #11 nipple & reg #11 caps. Nuthin fancy, but super cool. I only get a cpl shots off before & need to run a brush or patch down due to crud ring build up. I don't mind though.. I ran out of T7 & had to resort to shooting Goex 3f which I'm not all that crazy about the overall results of that. It was like falling down the proverbial muzzleloader ladder if you will across the board. For me, I think I'm gonna save the old school BP for the Pedersoli BP 12ga until its gone. Then only shoot T7 in my 12 ga & sidelock. I have 2 .45 inlines that I wish to use BH 209 in. Had that stuff been around when I bought my first inline ( TC Firehawk & Thunderhawk then 2 Omegas, all .50 ) I would have never ever messed with anything else. Though the fact is I used pyro pellets & powerbelts exclusively & never had a single prob or complaint for that matter & I shot a heck of a lot back then.
 
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Squint

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I didn't mention that I was shooting loose 777, or the fact that it is 3F equivalent. I'm right on the borderline for either 2F or 3F, all the good books say that 50 caliber can use either. I've never tried ffg in 777 but I would think it would work equivalently as well.
Squint
 

Ninering62

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Ballistics were not consistent at all. When you weight each pellet you would believe the range they weigh in at.
Ahh Haa. Thank you. I never ownd a chrony until a few mo ago, after I got my Paramount. So I had no idea either way back then to weigh them. I did know that the set up's I had for hunting purposes were just that & nothing more but a cheap, fast load & reload, non problematic way for me to hunt & shoot all I wanted within the parameters of what the gun, load, & myself with them were capable of doing. I guess I was just lucky with all that, all that time & thru 4 inlines, no probs & lots n lots of lead down range & critters on the ground dead. Most right where they were standing. Thanks again
 

45-70

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Sir what exactly do you do to diminish the crud ring, I personally don’t mind swabbing between shots, let’s my barrel cool , but that crud ring can be a real pita
sometimes people use to small of patch to wipe between shots. you should feel the crud ring when wiping between shots, I usually wipe up and down on the spot until I don't feel it anymore
 

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