Converted Paramount

[lwh723]

This is getting exhausting as I'm trying to get guns out. However, saying the arrowhead system has leakage issues because it craters primers due to sloppy firing pin hole on the paramount is pretty disingenuous. The arrowhead bolt head allows the primer to interface with the factory paramount bolt face, so arrowhead portion doesn't have any interaction withe the primer. This is to allow work as a generic fit for intended use as a BH209 gun. Using for smokeless (as to your credit you have said) is definitely not intended as you have said. As I have previously said, I would do a bolt head similar to what you're doing which I assume requires factory bolt to machined back.

However, saying HIS seals when Arrowhead won't is false based on the pictures you've shown. Cratered primers is totally different than leakage. And even with the much larger expansion chamber of the HIS, I suspect you have have seen similar results using HIS in the identical situation.

The primer extrusion you're seeing is similar to what used to happen on the old Hunter Bolt Nose kits with smokeless guns until I did a redesign with a much smaller firing pin and tighter tolerances on the firing pin hole.

 

[Customguns]

When you thought the picture of the bolt face was mine, you pointed out its deficiencies. Now that you know it’s yours, it is good again. Kind of curious, no? There have been no issues with the Hankins system. Non at all and I’ve installed a lot in the Paramount conversions. Back when I asked your help in solving this problem and you sent me hardened modules, I thought a 100% fix would be to install a bolt face different from yours. I did that and still had the same problem. Primers would still push into the firing pin hole. It wasn’t until I used HIS and my bolt face that the problem was solved. I really have no quarrel with you Luke. You have good products and I used your ignition system in a SML Paramount conversion with the understanding, upfront, your system was made for Blackhorn 209. It didn’t work out and I took responsibility for it. Things have escalated here because some of the members, your groupies, called me out as having ties to Hankins, not telling the truth and being incompetent. You start firing those kind of shots you better well expect return fire. I think you’re right, we can both agree your ignition system is not compatible with the conversions and velocities I’m generating. When I used your Paramount ignition system with Blackhorn 209 it worked great. When I tried it with 60 grains of H4198 it also worked great. Over 65 grains generated too much pressure. That is not a poor reflection on you. Your product was being used for an unintended purpose. My fault totally. A member had asked a question about an ignition system for a Paramount SML conversion. Since I have experience with that, not a little but alot, I didn’t see any harm in relaying my experience with HIS and Arrowhead’s. No disrespect was intended. From my experience you offer good products and good service, I just wouldn’t recommend your ignition system in high pressure loads used in a Paramount conversion. Hankins works fine and that’s what I’d recommend. As I said before, I have your ignition system in other SMLs and they work fine. Best regards.

 

[Ninering62]

When you thought the picture of the bolt face was mine, you pointed out its deficiencies. Now that you know it’s yours, it is good again. Kind of curious, no? There have been no issues with the Hankins system. Non at all and I’ve installed a lot in the Paramount conversions. Back when I asked your help in solving this problem and you sent me hardened modules, I thought a 100% fix would be to install a bolt face different from yours. I did that and still had the same problem. Primers would still push into the firing pin hole. It wasn’t until I used HIS and my bolt face that the problem was solved. I really have no quarrel with you Luke. You have good products and I used your ignition system in a SML Paramount conversion with the understanding, upfront, your system was made for Blackhorn 209. It didn’t work out and I took responsibility for it. Things have escalated here because some of the members, your groupies, called me out as having ties to Hankins, not telling the truth and being incompetent. You start firing those kind of shots you better well expect return fire. I think you’re right, we can both agree your ignition system is not compatible with the conversions and velocities I’m generating. When I used your Paramount ignition system with Blackhorn 209 it worked great. When I tried it with 60 grains of H4198 it also worked great. Over 65 grains generated too much pressure. That is not a poor reflection on you. Your product was being used for an unintended purpose. My fault totally. A member had asked a question about an ignition system for a Paramount SML conversion. Since I have experience with that, not a little but alot, I didn’t see any harm in relaying my experience with HIS and Arrowhead’s. No disrespect was intended. From my experience you offer good products and good service, I just wouldn’t recommend your ignition system in high pressure loads used in a Paramount conversion. Hankins works fine and that’s what I’d recommend. As I said before, I have your ignition system in other SMLs and they work fine. Best regards.

Well-written post. TY much respect.

 

[GM54-120]

Lets see if i understand this......A Paramount LRMP conversion kit for smokers was used in a smokeless build? Does ASG recommend that kit for smokeless builds?
https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/product/paramount-arrowhead-gen2-upgrade/

 

[Customguns]

Arrowhead’s website, at the time, said it was smokeless rated, but not to use smokeless in a non smokeless rated barrel. After talking to Luke and discussing what I was doing, I thought I’d give it a try in a smokeless conversion to the Paramount. Used a Brux barrel. This was a while back and my first Paramount conversion. It didn’t work out and I don’t blame Luke at all, but from my experience from that first build and two more with the Paramount and Arrowhead ignition system I would not recommend Arrowhead ignition in a Paramount SML conversion. Yesterday Luke came to that same conclusion. I stated the same a week or so ago, upon answering a member’s question, and it ruffled a lot of feathers. As much as some people don’t like Hankins, the simple fact is that I’ve since done a lot of Paramount conversions to SML using HIS and have not had any problems. That is not meant to disrespect Luke, that’s just what happened.

 

[GM54-120]

As far as i know Hankins does not offer parts to convert a Paramount to SML so im not sure why you keep recommending him.

Are you saying with YOUR bolt nose and a ASG plug it also blows primers or???????

 

[Ninering62]

Lets see if i understand this......A Paramount LRMP conversion kit for smokers was used in a smokeless build? Does ASG recommend that kit for smokeless builds?
https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/product/paramount-arrowhead-gen2-upgrade/

First off, respectfully, as an admin it looks like you're just continuing to " stir the pot " with your post.
Isn't time to let this " hair pullin " go? After customguns last post to settle things with Luke amicably & respectfully I might add & squash this squabble & the " mean girls piling on " BS. Your post is nothing more than stirring the pot! Let it go dude!!! He owned his role in this already...... what more do you want???

 

[Customguns]

Just in case you really want to know, yes, primers blow using my bolt nose and ASG plug and that was on three different Paramount builds. No problems with Hankins plug and my bolt nose. Perhaps other plugs would work as well. I tried Arrowhead first because Luke is personable and took the time to discuss it with me. When ASG didn’t work I tried Hankins and that did work. I have tried no others.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I am not here to stir the pot, but to offer one possible explanation of the problem. I also know I could be wrong.

I have respect for both Luke Horak and Tim Moss. From what I have seen, both of them can fix almost anything. For Tim, I know that includes your house, because of his radio shows on home repair he did in the past.

Luke's patented breech plug has the carbide bushing right at the primer module, which reduces the flame path, but probably also increases the pressure at the modules. If Jeff's breech plug has the bushing further away from the primer module, it is probably reducing the pressure at the primer module. I have used one type with Rem 700 centerfire actions, and the other type with Rem 700 ML actions.

I do not want to get involved in a urination match here., because my bladder is not as strong as it used to be.

Hopefully, some good can come out of this discussion.


I am a retired Middle School Science teacher. And as a result, I have really thick skin. If someone wants to throw some insults in my direction, it is OK.

 

[GM54-120]

Luke's patented breech plug has the carbide bushing right at the primer module, which reduces the flame path, but probably also increases the pressure at the modules.

Yes and is that plug the same as the plug used in Rem700 ect builds that have no issues. What im getting at is the ASG "Paramount" LRMP plug different in some way than the ASG Rem700 or even the Encore plugs? Could that difference if there is one be the possible reason?

 

[Customguns]

Sure it could. I never said never use Arrowhead’s plugs. I have them in other builds. I just wouldn’t put that particular plug in a Paramount. I did because it also came with Luke’s bolt nose. As I said before, my fault, I took a chance with it and it didn’t work out. I’d never seen a Paramount converted, was told it couldn’t be done and tried figuring it out. I have it working now and thought I could keep someone from making the same mistakes. I had thought that was what this forum was about. The free exchange of everyone’s knowledge and experience. Too bad that hasn’t been the case.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I just shot this,, I've done a lot of work with the 400 gr fury with the begara Clone 700 action some of you seen the pictures of it and the groups it shot,, this is the Paramount conversion that Woodman did for me of course it's in a new stock but I figured I would try it in a second 18 twist I'm very impressed this is 8 bullets this load shot this good also and the other 18 twists this is a 400 game Fury over 84 grains by weight of Blackhorn I continue to remain excited about my Woodman Paramount upgrade this rifle does this smokeless or with black horn and the fury bullet as I've said is the prettiest he's ever made,,, I hope we get past a little controversy and build some riflesI!!!

 

[Mnt monkey]

Lower right was clean Barrel two shots above it is six I pulled that one on the left five of them in a pretty good group there would you be excited about a Paramount upgrade?

 

[Customguns]

Speaking of getting back to building rifles. This is a Paramount SML conversion I finished today. .40 cal McGowen barrel.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

It appears, quite frankly, that you're the only person who's had any kind of leaking with the Arrowhead system. Yours leaked according to you and who are we to say that it didn't leak.

However, YOU are the only person, new to the site, who has complained about the Arrowhead system on this site. PERIOD.

I know of MANY people who have converted their RUM or UF rifles to the Arrowhead system, and I've yet to see where any of them have had any type of leak or primer pro

I have several Arrowhead ignition setups and no problems
I would not own a CVA . They are junk ( based on the 4 I owned. That cured me of CVA) .
Appears CVA is the problem. They work fine in everything else wouldn't expect any thing less from Cva though .

 

[ENCORE50A]

Another mean girl surfaces. Stop by my place any time 1874tinyshooter.

Why do you want to keep on threatening people?

Good grief, you owned up and are respected for that. Let it go.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

FYI. A DWB and proud of it . To bad you never were in that site .

 

[ENCORE50A]

And of course you “don’t have the time” to stop by. What you really mean is you don’t have the balls to stop by.

And why would he need the balls to stop buy?

 

[LBAhunter]

Please admin. lock this petty juvenile thread!!!!

 

[Smyrnagc]

Well...This went WAAAAYYYY overboard. Posts have been deleted and warnings given.
And...thread locked.