Is 60 grains of powder enough?

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Nothing at all marginal about the OP's load. It will kill deer all day long within 50 yds. will probably get lots of pass thrus and DRT's also.
He is not going after elk or moose. He is hunting deer under fifty yds.

I don’t think anyone seriously considers 60 grains anything other than marginal. I mean no disrespect, but I believe a quick cruise through just about ANY thread pertaining to hunting loads will show that most hunters’ loads start at around 80 grains. Don’t believe me, look or better yet, start a thread asking hunters what powder charges they actually use on game. I never said it wouldn’t work (especially under his controlled conditions), but that doesn’t mean it’s not marginal. If I HAD to put a number on it, I would say anything under 800 ft lbs would be marginal. While we all know ft lbs isn’t the end all be all, it however is widely recognized as a decent indicator. His load is ok as long as he passes shots that aren’t perfect presentation at or below his chosen range.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

You're also looking at the effects of 130 years of marketing.... now, 150gr of black powder in a .50 isn't even enough according to the "experts" lol. Only reason I use 100gr in my one round ball gun (.50) is because it's a ball, and has the trajectory of a thrown brick.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

What happened?

Bullet only penetrated one lung on a short range perfect broadside shot. Elk managed to get himself into some awful terrain before a finishing shot put him out of his misery. It taught me that a little powder & recoil is a small price to pay for a fitting end to a grand animal. Accuracy/shot placement is fine….but the projectile still has to reach, penetrate, & wreck the vitals.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

You mean to tell me that at 40 yards... 500 grains of lead at around 1000-1100fps mv only got 6" of penetration straight through ribs?. Sounds an awful like archery hunters and their "it jumped the string!"; or modern hunters claiming it took 4 shots with a .30WCF to kill a deer... when it's historically been one of the more common moose cartridges!

Considering Airguns like the AEA Zeus in .58 are getting almost full penetration of Elk with similar projectiles...

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

You're also looking at the effects of 130 years of marketing.... now, 150gr of black powder in a .50 isn't even enough according to the "experts" lol. Only reason I use 100gr in my one round ball gun (.50) is because it's a ball, and has the trajectory of a thrown brick.

You’re not wrong though I don’t agree with the notion that charges in excess of 100 grains are needed for hunting, though I have used 110 grains on occasion & I use 150 grains in my 72 caliber double rifle (not a typical hunting rifle).

 

[Hatchet Jack]

Montana,
I have no idea who you are or where you are coming from. There are dozens of well respected muzzleloader hunters on this forum that would agree that the OP's load is more than adequate to get the job done that he is looking for. Look at post #2 from Sabotloader. The man is one of the most knowledgeable, well respected muzzleloader hunters and shooters alive today.
Not only that ,I personally know and hunt with guys who shoot about the same load as the OP and kill deer all the time. I mean no disrespect, but.... You do not what you are talking about, plain and simple.

Sabotloader's Reply to the OP
"I can not imagine that your 60 grain load of Swiss combined with 400 grain lead conical would not easily do the job at 50 yards."

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

You mean to tell me that at 40 yards... 500 grains of lead at around 1000-1100fps mv only got 6" of penetration straight through ribs?. Sounds an awful like archery hunters and their "it jumped the string!"

I was there. I still have the recovered bullet that’s barely deformed even though cast of dead soft lead. Also, the velocity was well under 1100fps, probably 850-900 at best. Also, what 750 pound bull elk have you shot that only took 6 inches to hit vitals? It penetrated quite a bit more than 6”. Ever seen the lung of one of these animals? Really? You can tell yourself whatever you need to but I cast that bullet, I loaded the rifle, I called in & shot the elk, I removed the lungs (one of which was unharmed), I butchered the animal & traced the wound path. I can tell you with certainty that the load I used was ridiculously marginal (even though it worked). Knowing what I know now, I would consider that load marginal even for deer, though it would undoubtedly perform better on deer than elk.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Montana,
I have no idea who you are or where you are coming from. There are dozens of well respected muzzleloader hunters on this forum that would agree that the OP's load is more than adequate to get the job done that he is looking for. Look at post #2 from Sabotloader. The man is one of the most knowledgeable, well respected muzzleloader hunters and shooters alive today.
Not only that ,I personally know and hunt with guys who shoot about the same load as the OP and kill deer all the time. I mean no disrespect, but.... You do not what you are talking about, plain and simple.

Sabotloader's Reply to the OP
"I can not imagine that your 60 grain load of Swiss combined with 400 grain lead conical would not easily do the job at 50 yards."

Read what I wrote again, carefully. Just because something works (especially under carefully controlled circumstances) doesn’t mean isn’t marginal. I said it was marginal and I stand by that, I never said it wouldn’t work. Sabotloader said it would work, he didn’t speak on whether it was marginal in his opinion (probably because he didn’t want to have to deal with replies like this).

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I was there. I still have the recovered bullet that’s barely deformed even though cast of dead soft lead. Also, the velocity was well under 1100fps, probably 850-900 at best. Also, what 750 pound bull elk have you shot that only took 6 inches to hit vitals? It penetrated quite a bit more than 6”. Ever seen the lung of one of these animals? Really? You can tell yourself whatever you need to but I cast that bullet, I loaded the rifle, I called in & shot the elk, I removed the lungs (one of which was unharmed), I butchered the animal & traced the wound path. I can tell you with certainty that the load I used was ridiculously marginal (even though it worked). Knowing what I know now, I would consider that load marginal even for deer, though it would undoubtedly perform better on deer than elk.

interesting, 8 gr gains you that much velocity. Pritchett Cartridges are generally rated at 1200-1250. OK, call it 10 inches... Still not bison or moose. All the "jumped the string" and "4 shots of .30WCF" guys would swear similar things... People take Elk with pistols at that range with substantially less weight and similar velocity (to say nothing of slug hunters, which use similar weighted projectiles, with a lower SD, at only slightly faster velocities).

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

interesting, 8 gr gains you that much velocity. Pritchett Cartridges are generally rated at 1200-1250. OK, call it 10 inches... Still not bison or moose. All the "jumped the string" and "4 shots of .30WCF" guys would swear similar things... People take Elk with pistols at that range with substantially less weight and similar velocity.

How many elk have you taken? How many with a Muzzleloading rifle? Hell, I’ve taken one with a tiny bolt action carbine in 7.62x39. Guess what? It’s still marginal. I chronographed my 65 grain load, I wish I could remember it exactly but it was under 1000 fps for sure, and I think it barely broke 900.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I'm just saying, looking at what people currently use, people have used historically. Don't live where there are Elk, but I've hunted enough, and shot enough cattle carcasses (market steers are 2-2.5x the size of even the largest bull elk) out of curiosity to know roughly what bullets do...

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

I'm just saying, looking at what people currently use, people have used historically. Don't live where there are Elk, but I've hunted enough, and shot enough cattle carcasses (market steers are 2-2.5x the size of even the largest bull elk) out of curiosity to know roughly what bullets do...

Look, I’m not trying to start a pissing match. I’m merely relaying the details of an actual real life experience with all the real details. I’m certainly not proud of how that experience played out. That experience happened because I was inexperienced & listened to people on forums who issued very factual sounding advice that likely was not based on their actual personal experiences. I’m hoping that by sharing the real & also ugly details that I might save someone else from having to go through a similar experience. Many non resident elk hunters do not share the true gritty details of what happened on their hunts (certainly not all though). Will the OP’s load kill deer at short range & with perfect shot placement? Yes. Would I use it? Probably not, though I do admit to using marginal loads in the past. Would I use it for elk? No.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. The OP's load is more than enough. Lots of us have seen it in real life experiences. And no, perfect shot placement is not always needed. Real life hunting experiences have proven that. You talk a good talk and posting pics of your mini elk is not germane to this thread and doesn't prove a darn thing. Not sure why you posted it. If you weren't trying to start a pissing contest, you sure fooled me.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. The OP's load is more than enough. Lots of us have seen it in real life experiences. And no, perfect shot placement is not always needed. Real life hunting experiences have proven that. You talk a good talk and posting pics of your mini elk is not germane to this thread and doesn't prove a darn thing. Not sure why you posted it. If you weren't trying to start a pissing contest, you sure fooled me.

I typed out a reply but am editing it to this because, well because it was honest but not necessarily appropriate. I apparently inadvertently ruffled some feathers. I was only trying to help. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[MrTom]

I typed out a reply but am editing it to this because, well because it was honest but not necessarily appropriate. I apparently inadvertently ruffled some feathers. I was only trying to help. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.

Well stated.

 

[MrTom]

Bullet only penetrated one lung on a short range perfect broadside shot. Elk managed to get himself into some awful terrain before a finishing shot put him out of his misery. It taught me that a little powder & recoil is a small price to pay for a fitting end to a grand animal. Accuracy/shot placement is fine….but the projectile still has to reach, penetrate, & wreck the vitals.

Well stated.

Admins....please remove previous mess-up. Thank you.

 

[ElDiablo]

Read what I wrote again, carefully. Just because something works (especially under carefully controlled circumstances) doesn’t mean isn’t marginal. I said it was marginal and I stand by that, I never said it wouldn’t work. Sabotloader said it would work, he didn’t speak on whether it was marginal in his opinion (probably because he didn’t want to have to deal with replies like this).

Exactly.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I guess I need to tell all those old timers I shared hunting camp with that they killed their deer with marginal loads. Loads they been using their whole lives to kill deer without any problems. Need to tell them they owed it to the deer to use magnum loads instead of their pee wee round balls pushed by light charges of Goex. I would be either laughed out of or kicked out of camp.
Nothing marginal about a load when you pull the trigger and a deer is lying there when the smoke clears.
I guess I just don't understand what "marginal" means or what "carefully controlled circumstances" means.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

There is always an exception to every thing. We should endeavor to listen and learn, not criticize and ignore. At the end of the day, you are going to use whatever load "YOU" are comfortable with. IMHO

 

[Walkingeagle]

Montana Muzzleloader, I have taken personally probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 +/- elk in my life, and been involved in equally as many with friends. I do not believe folks who have never taken elk, or perhaps only a couple (where things went perfect) have the right to claim any experience with the toughness of an elk. Like yourself, I have seen what it’s like when things go wrong in an elk kill. Folks, they ain’t dead till they are dead!! I would refuse to use anything marginal for an elk.
Within this thread I hear about how the elk in the eastern US were decimated by light loads in PRB, and I absolutely believe that statement. What I don’t hear is of the vast numbers who survived the initial shot only to go off miles upon miles into the worst crap hole, died a slow death, and were “wasted”. I also know that deer ain’t elk. Comparing the two makes no sense, and at 40yds the OP’s load is more than enough. Lord knows I wouldn’t stand in front of it!
Walk