My 50cal Full Bore Project

[reelamin]

Today was another learning experience for sure. I thought I had it dialed in, but she slapped me straight real quick. Went to where I could shoot and set up to shoot my test loads. (Every thing is with 120gr BH209) The first one was a Fury sized to .5005 521x60 wad, and they loaded fine and shot decent with a 1.25" group at 1922fps. Then I used a diffrent base wad (MMP) and it was starting to get hard to load but tolerable still. Did not shoot so well, but put those two close together so holds promise 3" group with two into .6". The funny thing was ES was single digit, and the 2nd shot was the flyer at 1905fps. Went to load a Barnes sized to .5005 and negative not going, so I give it a few love taps thinking it will slide once its fully in. Nope, stuck and my tools were in the shop...because I knew I had it dialed in i left them. Pack up head home and clear it out, so I thought I would try another bullet at the shop (Barns XPB) and same thing. I also tried the Thor I knurled (Thor body is .500) and sized to .5005, and got it down farther but still stuck! AAAAGGGHHHHH you have got to be kidding me.

Oh well I have some more Fury's to try ready to go, so run back to the range (with tools) and load the first one and its tight but fits. Different target but it is right in the same group as the previous targets. When I lay the first target over it lines up perfectly. Go to load the second one and its tight, so I give it some love taps and she slides more. Put the range rod on and it wont move, so I am putting a lot of weight on it and break the dang end. WTH???!!!! You are kidding right??

So I drive out the stuck Fury (have all my stuff now) and get everything going again. I go with a bullet I know will fit because the body is small and the skirt is sized to .5005 (350gr Hornady FB with a MMP base) The clouds move in so no chrono speed and the group is terrible. 3 shots strung laterally about 8"! I did not expect it to shoot well because only the very base makes contact with the rifling. Screw it...I load up and go back to the shop. I clean the gun, test fit and only the fury really feel correct. I guess my excitement over rode the actual fit with the file knurling on all bullets. The surface area is a lot more with the file, and they are too tight at .5005 after a few shots!! I come outside after getting it all done...and blue skys but not enough time to get back to the range.

I had 12 shots down the bore, when it was sticking. Now I fully cleaned it, and will see how it works. Again the full file knurling not going to fit....I can not belief how one bullet will fit. (Sierra Pistol) but the other wont. So, back at it tomorrow with .5005 sized Fury and a few .500 other bullets. Hope I get some shooting in. Learning and frustrated at the same time.

 

[ENCORE50A]

......…. Again the full file knurling not going to fit....I can not belief how one bullet will fit. (Sierra Pistol) but the other wont. So, back at it tomorrow with .5005 sized Fury and a few .500 other bullets. Hope I get some shooting in. Learning and frustrated at the same time.

I may have learned it by accident, but I started out sizing all the different jacketed bullets, in a clean barrel prior to shooting them down to 20#. I have some 501's in 275 and 320grs that both required them being sized down 6 clicks smaller than the original 325gr star tips.
I know some guys run bullets through their sizer 3 or 4 times because of spring back, where others say do it only once. With the Fury bullets, I size them just once. Every once in awhile, I'll have one that loads relatively easy, which when shooting through the chronograph has considerable less velocity and is normally out of the group. I'm shooting extreme charges of BH, but at the range always swab between shots with no loading issues, yet.

 

[reelamin]

......…. Again the full file knurling not going to fit....I can not belief how one bullet will fit. (Sierra Pistol) but the other wont. So, back at it tomorrow with .5005 sized Fury and a few .500 other bullets. Hope I get some shooting in. Learning and frustrated at the same time.

I may have learned it by accident, but I started out sizing all the different jacketed bullets, in a clean barrel prior to shooting them down to 20#. I have some 501's in 275 and 320grs that both required them being sized down 6 clicks smaller than the original 325gr star tips.
I know some guys run bullets through their sizer 3 or 4 times because of spring back, where others say do it only once. With the Fury bullets, I size them just once. Every once in awhile, I'll have one that loads relatively easy, which when shooting through the chronograph has considerable less velocity and is normally out of the group. I'm shooting extreme charges of BH, but at the range always swab between shots with no loading issues, yet.

Thanks, I was swabbing between shots even with the BH209. Today was another frustrating day, but again I learned more. I actually bulged the fury I stuck yesterday (never checked or re-sized it), I verified with a new one yesterday, then grabbed the bulged one this morning and promptly stuck it!! I was very mad, ripped it out with pliers and threw it as far as I could. I then checked with my Barnes 290 TEZ and shot a 1.6" group...exactly what it shoots. I tried a .500 Barnes and it loaded way too easy. Yep, landed a foot away and was starting to keyhole.

So know I am going to re-size everything again, try every single different bullet type in the shop, and keep after it later this week. Mine tightens up fouled, so I will test fit with a fouled barrel as I was test fitting clean. I was thinking of leaving the sizing lube on and see how that works.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Im in no way trying to stir things up . What is the advantage shooting these full bore 325 grain Fury bullets ? Encore i have seen the groups you have shot with your .45 300 grain SST bullets and sabots. Well beyond 300 yards (which you have said Furys .50s are good to about 200 yards). It seems like balistically your going backwards. I could see shooting full bore .50 cal bullets if you were having trouble with accuracy but I dont think that was the case ?

 

[reelamin]

Im in no way trying to stir things up . What is the advantage shooting these full bore 325 grain Fury bullets ? Encore i have seen the groups you have shot with your .45 300 grain SST bullets and sabots. Well beyond 300 yards (which you have said Furys .50s are good to about 200 yards). It seems like balistically your going backwards. I could see shooting full bore .50 cal bullets if you were having trouble with accuracy but I dont think that was the case ?[/quote

Was that for ENCORE or me?

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

That was meant for Encore50
I realize your after a Elk load . Encore50 is a deer hunter in Michigan.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I apologize Im getting away from your original post . Your gonna have a tuff time doing what you want with 300ish .50 cal bullets with poor BCs. Im afraid your not gonna get the speed or accuracy you want.

If I were to build a long range .50 cal gun i would concentrate on heavy lead only because BC and speed is not as critical.

Its to bad your limited to a .50 . You would have no trouble getting your 1000ftlbs of energy out of todays modern .45 or .40 cal muzzleloader bullets.Right now i have been shooting a .40 TC Omega with 84 grains Blackhorn 209 pushing a 250 grain Pittman Accumax with a BC of .385 at 2350 fps . At 500 yards I still have 1092 ftlbs of energy.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Im in no way trying to stir things up . What is the advantage shooting these full bore 325 grain Fury bullets ? Encore i have seen the groups you have shot with your .45 300 grain SST bullets and sabots. Well beyond 300 yards (which you have said Furys .50s are good to about 200 yards). It seems like balistically your going backwards. I could see shooting full bore .50 cal bullets if you were having trouble with accuracy but I dont think that was the case ?

Its just the attempt to eliminate the weakest factor, the sabot, for those of us still hell bent on shooting a .50cal with jacketed bullets.
The Fury 325gr star tips, now 320's, are actually good to 300yds as can be seen in one of the targets I posted in the LR forum. They do not shoot well beyond that range. However they are a DANDY hunting bullet, extremely accurate, but better suited for those shooting production rifles, and/or where a full bore bullet is required by law.
I don't believe I'm going to get a land riding jacketed bullet from a .50 that's going to be a true LONG range bullet (300+).
So yes, in a nut shell if my intent is long range, I am going backwards balistically using land riders. At least in the case of what is available today.

The .50's have saboted bullets available that when shooting the speed I'm getting with the 300gr bullets, will get me half way to 1,100fpe at 600yds.

 

[reelamin]

I realize as we get farther down in the posts some things get lost. I clearly understand and agree the best way to do what I'm doing for hunting deer and shooting targets in a majority of states is with the .45 cal. I WILL BE HUNTING ELK AND IT REQUIRES I SHOOT A FULL BORE BULLET OF AT LEAST 50 CALIBER. If I can get rid of a sabot with a jacketed bullet for other shooting than great. So why not try something new, not common, but ballisticly (sp) has enough energy???. The accuracy level is just mine due to wanting to shoot out to 300yds. I don't get to use optics, so I'm limited with my current set up in my options and range. Sure I could get some huge bore shooting 600grn bullets with a slider sight and 40" barrel, but that is not a practical hunting rifle for ME.

It may seem completely foolish and a waste of money to some, but like my first post...I like to do things maybe others dont. Will it work/no clue...waste of money/to some yes to some no, regardless I am learning a lot and hopefully others can gain my it. Will I end up with a 50 that I can shoot heavy loads of powder with...probably if this will work...so might as well try with what I have before I drop another 2K on a rifle only.

I do appreciate input and criticism. Thanks everyone so far for their input, ideas, and suggestions.

 

[Idaholewis]

These would be my Choice if i chose to do such a thing, either 500, or 550 Grain, with 85-95 Grains of Swiss 2F powder. Both of These shoot Really well in my Sidelock with GM LRH 50 Cal 1:28 Twist Barrel (Blued Version) I have not shot these past 100 Yards yet, Accuracy is Plenty good at 100, i have no doubt 300 would be no problem.

I know you weren’t interested in hearing opinions on Shooting at Elk at 300 yards with Open/Peep sights, But I’m gonna throw my .02 Cents in anyway. I shoot Open/Peep sights Exclusively on all of My Muzzleloaders (at least a Dozen of them) and i do so out to 500 yards so far, I am Doing this at HIGH visibility Targets, and even those can be really difficult to see at times, i have actually had to pack up and leave Due to a Poor Target Color that i just couldn’t see well enough. I have lived around Elk and have Watched them in their natural environment my whole life, Depending on terrain, vegetation, etc. Even as Big as Elk Are they Can be a VERY VERY difficult Target to see, Especially with Open Sights at 300 Yards when in their natural environment, they Blend in. Unless they are Standing Broadside in a Wide open Meadow (How many of those do you see?) With a Scoped Muzzleloader and Practice, 300 Yards would be NO PROBLEM!! But Open/Peep sights at Game this Far away is a WHOLE Different Ballgame. I’m Not saying it can’t be done, Just Stating a FACT

 

[ENCORE50A]

........... I WILL BE HUNTING ELK AND IT REQUIRES I SHOOT A FULL BORE BULLET OF AT LEAST 50 CALIBER. If I can get rid of a sabot with a jacketed bullet for other shooting than great. So why not try something new, not common, but ballisticly (sp) has enough energy???. The accuracy level is just mine due to wanting to shoot out to 300yds. I don't get to use optics, so I'm limited with my current set up in my options and range. Sure I could get some huge bore shooting 600grn bullets with a slider sight and 40" barrel, but that is not a practical hunting rifle for ME.

It may seem completely foolish and a waste of money to some, but like my first post...I like to do things maybe others dont. Will it work/no clue...waste of money/to some yes to some no, regardless I am learning a lot and hopefully others can gain my it. Will I end up with a 50 that I can shoot heavy loads of powder with...probably if this will work...so might as well try with what I have before I drop another 2K on a rifle only.

I do appreciate input and criticism. Thanks everyone so far for their input, ideas, and suggestions.

Understanding that you need/want to remain with a .50cal, you really don't need to spend $2k on a rifle if you choose down the road. The Remington Ultimate WILL give you the 300yd energy with a full bore bullet. They'll be going on sale after the first of the year and I've seen them as low as $650 new. I would HIGHLY suggest that if that's a route you might be interested in, you consider having the ASG Gen2 breech plug installed. Certainly the heavy loads of powder you may want to try is easily capable in those rifles. The Fury bullets shoot excellent.
Its fun........... Merry Christmas.

 

[reelamin]

These would be my Choice if i chose to do such a thing, either 500, or 550 Grain, with 85-95 Grains of Swiss 2F powder.

I know you weren’t interested in hearing opinions on Shooting at Elk at 300 yards with Open/Peep sights, But I’m gonna throw my .02 Cents in anyway. I shoot Open/Peep sights Exclusively on all of My Muzzleloaders (at least a Dozen of them) and i do so out to 500 yards so far, I am Doing this at HIGH visibility Targets, and even those can be really difficult to see at times, i have actually had to pack up and leave Due to a Poor Target Color that i just couldn’t see well enough. I have lived around Elk and have Watched them in their natural environment my whole life, Depending on terrain, vegetation, etc. Even as Big as Elk Are they Can be a VERY VERY difficult Target to see, Especially with Open Sights at 300 Yards when in their natural environment, they Blend in. Unless they are Standing Broadside in a Wide open Meadow (How many of those do you see?) With a Scoped Muzzleloader and Practice, 300 Yards would be NO PROBLEM!! But Open/Peep sights at Game this Far away is a WHOLE Different Ballgame. I’m Not saying it can’t be done, Just Stating a FACT

Idaho...I have NEVER said I was not interested in a OPINION...even in politics. I enjoy a healthy debate but never argue about anythings. I am a firm believer in hearing what others believe, experienced, and are willing to share. I greatly appreciate your input and ideas. I am not ruling anything out, and everything is an option in their order ON MY list of desire. As far as shooting elk or anything at any range I dont judge anyone until they fall outside my beliefs...then I judge like heck...and I'll even share my opinion when not asked. If a person can put a lethal projectile into a small kill zone every single time the very first time then the distance is irrelevant to me. Not a pull it out of their butt luck shot...but can do it time and again on paper and in the field they can shoot as far or as close as they like. BUT, if you put your information on the INTERNET WHERE ANYONE CAN REPLY....YOU ARE OPENLY ASKING FOR THEIR INPUT GOOD AND BAD. If not then make your own site/blog/forum where you get to share only what you want to share....like Clinton News Network and others. I shot my bull this year at 529yds on about 25 degree angle (because I had the degree and he moved a little) and DRT using center fire and not some stupid 6.5 Creedmore. We have 10 people in our elk camp and only two of us would even try or could make that shot. With my current crappy factory front sight...Williams Peep rear 300yds is not a shot I would take on an animal. With some different options on the front...accurate gun, perfect situation...300 is a shot I can make.

Merry Christamas to all and I hope 2019 is a great year for everyone and theirs included.

 

[reelamin]

Understanding that you need/want to remain with a .50cal, you really don't need to spend $2k on a rifle if you choose down the road. The Remington Ultimate WILL give you the 300yd energy with a full bore bullet. They'll be going on sale after the first of the year and I've seen them as low as $650 new. I would HIGHLY suggest that if that's a route you might be interested in, you consider having the ASG Gen2 breech plug installed. Certainly the heavy loads of powder you may want to try is easily capable in those rifles. The Fury bullets shoot excellent.
Its fun........... Merry Christmas.[/quote]

Agreed, the figure was a bit of sarcasm with truth and generally an attention getter....haha. I need to have the option to put in a exposed or "western" ignition system with caps. Regardless only two states are still hanging onto the western requirement....wa folded last year and Oregon follows Wa like a puppy dog. Idaho...they will hang on for a while just to give everyone the finger. Im using 209 primers with BH209 because it is easier and cleaner shooting. My rifle so far has shot the same accuracy with BP and when using BP/BH209 duplex loaded...of course using sabots. Usually as I go down these rabbit holes...I start digging deeper when I run out of tunnel so I might just need to know what a 45 will do. I can shoot deer and elk with it in my home state....so what the heck right. Merry Christmas

 

[GM54-120]

50cal full bore jacketed is gunna be a tough pill to swallow at that range. One bullet no longer made would have been great to try. Remington used to offer a 385gr CLHP made for 500S&W and some of their slugs.

My personal opinion is the minimum needed for any real chance at success is a Rem700UML for around $750 and the ASG LRMP conversion he has on sale for around $235 installed. Total package cost if you bought it all from ASG would be just a little over $1000. He wants $775 for the RUML in laminate with a cheap factory peep site.

 

[GM54-120]

Montana, Idaho and Oregon are lead only are they not?...With the exception of Powerbelts and maybe Thors in Oregon. Jacketed is specifically prohibited in Idaho

 

[Idaholewis]

Montana, Idaho and Oregon are lead only are they not?...With the exception of Powerbelts and maybe Thors in Oregon. Jacketed is specifically prohibited in Idaho

Here is Idaho’s Muzzleloader only hunt Rules, Jacketed is Prohibited here. I don’t know about the other States?

https://idfg.idaho.gov/hunt/weapons/muzzleloader

 

[reelamin]

Instead of looking at every state and reading reams of paper....just go here. They have them all compiled and links if you want to read more. Super easy!!
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/articles ... -by-state/

Idaho is the only state that I would hunt that requires all lead. Oregon requires no plastic parts and not longer than twice the diameter. They will probably follow Wa shortly. Colorado or Oregon (Depending on draw results as Oregon is over the counter for where I go) is where I am going next for out of state, and I'm good to go.

 

[Idaholewis]

Instead of looking at every state and reading reams of paper....just go here. They have them all compiled and links if you want to read more. Super easy!!
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/articles ... -by-state/

Idaho is the only state that I would hunt that requires all lead.

And Hopefully it Stays this way

 

[reelamin]

Took out the last of the Fury bullets I have in hand, and had been re-sized four times at the set die setting. They were tight but I was able to seat them with decent force. I still thought they were tight, but I dont have anyone helping me so I can actually know. Lots of people giving verbal/typing help, but completely different if you have someone in person showing you. Anyway, I shot a group and it was right in where I had been before 1.5"...not great but consistent. Started in with the next group and round #5 for the day stuck. I JUST ABOUT FLIPPED THE F OUT!!! I dont break things when I get mad....but I was FURIOUS TIMES 1 MILLION and it was very close to loosing my brains!! I literally had to sit in the rig and get my crap together before I did something I would regret later.

I stewed on in for a while...loaded all my stuff up...drove back home and adjusted the sizing die. I had been waiting for my new Fury bullets to show up, but I was done with stuck bullets and stuff not working. I twisted in three more lines/adjustments smaller and they fit well. I could not even get them to register different on my micrometer, but they definitely fit the bore better than before. Go gack to the range and all three load exactly the same and pretty darn easy. I stack two on top of each other, and feel like I pulled the 3rd to the right. I know people say things to cover, but I knew I pulled it right and sure enough it was to the right of the first two. BUUUUT...the group was under an inch at .8, and I KNOW it is capable of much more but I'm out of bullets. Velocity is less than I want...but not by much...and I still have not tweaked or tried some T7. It shot amazingly well!

So I will just adjust the die for each bullet type and check it for accuracy. I was trying to shoot like my center fire and take several different bullets to the range at a time. I know where the die was, so I can easily just turn it back or to the setting I need. I was just worried about getting the setting back where I needed it. Anyone have any experience with the adjustable dies....are they dead nuts when you set them back or does it take tweaking every single time? Overall was a much better day!

Did not have a lot of time today, but should have more time tomorrow. Plan is to shoot a couple different bullets if I can, but at least one more tomorrow. Today was my first sign I was doing something right.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I've found in my limited experience that when adjusting the die from bullet to bullet, moving it back to the original setting for a specific bullet, gives me the same loading force. I actually write down the die setting for each bullet, on the package and on paper. I was told to size them so that I only run them through the die one time. In the beginning I was running them through the die 3 times, rotating them each time, then I was told to do it only once. Being so used to loading bullets in sabots, loading land riders with just 20-25# of force is strange as heck and seem way to light. I've always swabbed between rounds.

Sorry for the frustration. Been there myself.