My 50cal Full Bore Project

[reelamin]

Ok, just to qualify this...I'M A FREAK!!!! I over think, over do, over process, and pretty much make a mountain out of a mole hill. Regardless I am on a quest to make a 300yd elk killer muzzle loader. What are the requirements....???? Goal is MOA accuracy and 1000lb minimum FT LBS on target. Maximum yardage determined by ft lb of energy. I also want to qualify this is geared towards elk....because if you can kill an elk.....you can kill a deer at half that distance. I would prefer to stay with 50cal as it is legal in more states. I am also aware the 45 cal seems to be the full bore champion, and I am not opposed to going that route if I have to. Another reason for full bore is I want to install a muzzle brake.

I'm new to muzzle loaders (2years) and only have my current Bighorn. I figured out real quick I needed more accuracy and better sights to kill a bull at 300yds. NOT interested in a debate on if I should be trying to kill a bull at 300yds, but happy to discuss and work on how to kill one at 300yds!! I found out instantly...my rear peep with factory front on a Knight Big Horn was not going to work. The front was so huge I was limited to about a 200yd shot. I am not interested in guessing where the bullet will land. I have a Lyman Globe with some shaver inserts to install after I'm done with this load development.

I have done a lot of research and testing to find out what my rifle will do up to this point. My rifle is at best a 1.5"/100yd with a scope...about a 3" with the factory front and a Wilson FP peep rear. Not even close to what I need for my goal. These are full loads...not reduced...it requires full load to meet the ft lb on target requirement. Shooting 300gr minimum bullet weight or very close to that. Not interested in a 250-260gr bullet as it is for Elk. My stock rifle was really not accurate enough, but after bedding the action it tightened up to its current accuracy. (Happy to cover bedding an action...super easy...and anyone can do it.) I'm currently shooting Sabot rounds (Barnes 290 at 2100), but those are not compatible with a muzzle brake.

I tested lots of different combinations of Sabot, bullets, powder....bottom line it wont shoot under 1.5" at the velocity I want/need. I now need under 1"/100yds at max velocity and full bore seems to offer that potential. So does knurling bullets to stick to sabots for under sized bullets. BUUUT...I want a brake on it...so full bore ist he way to go. If I cant make the full bore work then I'll se if the sabot gets better with a knurled bullet.

Please give me input both critical and positive. Looking for any information available, but I would ask you to clarify if this what you have done or what you have heard. Easy to tell someone how to fix something you read about on the internet......not so easy to spend hours and major bucks to find out yourself. Not trying to be a *censored*.....just calling out the obvious of todays world.

Is the only way to post photos is to send them to Photobucket and then post here? Appears there is no way to just post pics here.

Here we go!!!!

 

[long shot]

I have aKnight .50 cal. and this is my load for very heavy conical. 550 grease groove from buffalo arms. .50 veg wad from buffalo. 85 -90 grns. Swiss 2 ff

 

[reelamin]

I have aKnight .50 cal. and this is my load for very heavy conical. 550 grease groove from buffalo arms. .50 veg wad from buffalo. 85 -90 grns. Swiss 2 ff

Thanks for info. What velocity are you getting? I have not written off heavy lead bullets. I prefer the trajectory of the jacketed 290-325gr, but if they wont work I'm not opposed to going old school.

 

[ENCORE50A]

There's probably multiple ways you could end up with a 300yd elk rifle. Understanding that you'd like to use a .50cal, there's most likely two different immediate options.
1.... Heavy lead
2.... Increased velocity and 300-325gr bullets.

I myself am not a heavy lead shooter, but there are others well versed here using heavy lead that can supply that information.

One .50cal option for increased velocity with 300 - 325gr bullets, even 344gr, would be the Remington Ultimate rifle, or even the Ultimate Firearms Inc. rifle. The Remington Ultimate (RUM) is considerably the lessor cost and almost a mirror image of the UF. These 50's are easily 300yd and beyond rifles, with the energy at 300yds+ you're searching for.

Many now are changing out the OEM breech plugs (both rifles) for the AGS Gen2 replacement, which through personal experience, is the best thing one can do to either rifle. It makes both rifles BH209 compatible, with perfect head space and zero gas cutting. Both rifles are capable of much heavier charges of all propellants than any other 50cal. production rifle, which means increased velocity and bullet energy. Both rifles can be crazy accurate at long range with the right bullet and propellant combination.

The new Fury land riding bullets, will give you exactly what you may need if a .50cal full bore bullet is required. A very good bullet with reasonable costs. If sabots could be used, then there are other bullets (expensive) with very high BC's, that are capable, with heavy charges, that can provide over 1,000 foot pounds of energy to 600yds from either rifle.

Here's an example in ballistics data using heavy charges of BH209 and the Parker 300gr Black Max bullet:

This is an example of the Fury 325gr star tip 50cal land riding bullet. I actually hunt with this bullet:

Good luck with your decision.

 

[long shot]

I have aKnight .50 cal. and this is my load for very heavy conical. 550 grease groove from buffalo arms. .50 veg wad from buffalo. 85 -90 grns. Swiss 2 ff

Thanks for info. What velocity are you getting? I have not written off heavy lead bullets. I prefer the trajectory of the jacketed 290-325gr, but if they wont work I'm not opposed to going old school.

Should be close to 1290 and energy at 300 around 1200fpe, BC maybe .37

 

[GM54-120]

I do not think it is possible to get 300 yards and full bore jacketed from your Bighorn. I cant imagine how you will get much over 1900fps from it. Heavy lead conical is the only way i can see it happening and that is going to be quite the challenge too.

 

[reelamin]

I do not think it is possible to get 300 yards and full bore jacketed from your Bighorn. I cant imagine how you will get much over 1900fps from it. Heavy lead conical is the only way i can see it happening and that is going to be quite the challenge too.

GM54...thanks. According to my chrono I'm getting +2100fps with a 300gr Saboted bullet and not surpassing maximum charges. Not with just one bullet/sabot combo but numerous with a quick average of right at 2100fps. Yes this is a challenge but what the heck...I'll learn a lot, spend money in the industry, and hopefully meet some new and great people.

 

[reelamin]

I spent some time determining my actual bore diameter. I had some full bore FURY, Thor, and hand knurled with files a .500 Speer. I used a NOE resizer on the knurled bullets. I'm sure my barrel is barely .501 and probably even under. If I knurled the entire side of the bullet to the base I was not going to get a .501 in the barrel. I ended up using the side of one file and knurling the top half then I could get a .501 down. I could even get a .502 with a lot of pressure, and that was because he raised area was small and pliable. The .501 Thor would go but only with a good smack to force the skirt and the body was .500 so it would fit. The Fury .501 would go but was fairly snug (got very tight after fouled barrel) and no way could I get a .502 Fury more then .25" down the barrel.

I went to my nice bench area to shoot sight in the scope (Used only for load development). Yes, I will be adding a Lyman Globe front sight, but for now only using a 12x scope. I brought some different bullets to try and get started on the development. It zeroed back where I needed it with two shots at 50yds and two shots at 100yds. I did not account for how cold it was, and did not bring any heaters, gloves, or what I needed. I was not planning on load testing, but I felt good enough to give one bullet a try.

I went with the .501 Fury 325gr using a .521x.060 fiber wad first. I used 120gr of BH209 and a Winchester Primer. 1st and second shot were 7" apart and the 3rd was less than 2" away from the 1st. WTH? all shots felt good at the shot...this is not a good start. I only had six of the Fury left and was not going to try them back to back. I just packed up and went home to get organized and ready to dive in fully. Oh, and order more of the .501 Fury bullets.

I forgot to mention the .501 Fury were super hard to seat with a fouled bore. As in REALLY HARD to seat. I wiped the bore between each shot with a windex patch twice. It would require a starter ball on top of your ramrod or handle like my range rod to seat a bullet. This may be a .500 bore after fouling....that might work out great.

So I went back to the shop and started checking every bullet I had knurled and sized. If it was .500 It would go down the fouled bore easily, but as soon I tried a Knurled .501 no way was it going to fit. The .501 Fury, FPB (resized to .501 as skirt was .507),and Fury I could get down the bore because the .501 area of the bullet was small. The fury was super tight and no way could I load it with just my standard ram rod.

Any suggestions? I hope to make it out and just shoot some .500 bullets with a base wad, but it sure feel like it is getting no grip on the rifling.

 

[ENCORE50A]

With the Fury 325's, I size them with a Swinglock adjustable die and I use the recommendation of 20# force to push the bullet down the bore. The setting I'm currently using gives me 23# force to load. Using 120grs volume of BH, a .518x.060 veggie wad at that force gives me excellent 100yd groups.

 

[reelamin]

With the Fury 325's, I size them with a Swinglock adjustable die and I use the recommendation of 20# force to push the bullet down the bore. The setting I'm currently using gives me 23# force to load. Using 120grs volume of BH, a .518x.060 veggie wad at that force gives me excellent 100yd groups.

Thanks for the info. How do you measure your seating pressure? I know for a fact I was WAY WAY over 20lb getting the Fury .501 seated in a fouled bore. I would guess easily 40-50lb or even more...they were super tight. I am checking with NOE now to see if they can make me a half size bushing. Just trying to avoid the Swinglock for now. I'm several hundred into it now for a "test" project. LOL..... being 50 cal on the adjustable sizer, so not really able to sell it easily compared to the .45cal. Will see what NOE says and I guess go from there. Sabotloader had a knurl using a pipe cutter with the Barnes, and I have some so that is my next trial tomorrow. Only issue is...if it works not sure how or if I can use the pipe cutter on the other bullet desings.

 

[ENCORE50A]

With the Fury 325's, I size them with a Swinglock adjustable die and I use the recommendation of 20# force to push the bullet down the bore. The setting I'm currently using gives me 23# force to load. Using 120grs volume of BH, a .518x.060 veggie wad at that force gives me excellent 100yd groups.

Thanks for the info. How do you measure your seating pressure? ……..

I'm a retired Ergonomist and use a precision force gauge. I do not measure the starting force for the bullet to enter the crown. I measure the force required after the bullet knurling is completely within the rifling. What is extremely important in measuring that force is that you just push the bullet down the bore slowly and not accelerate. When measuring a number of bullets, you attempt to push the bullet down the bore at the identical speed for each bullet. Acceleration will increase the force measurement resulting in a false reading.
I have the gauge attached to the end of my ramrod and after the full length of the knurled bullet is within the rifling, I push it slowly down the bore to determine the actual force.
Some people use a set of bathroom scales, determining the weight of the rifle, then push the bullet down the bore and determine an approximate loading force. The main thing one has to remember is to not accelerate the movement. Just push it down the barrel.

Bullet seating force is different than loading force. I seat bullets VERY hard with two hands and a thump. I've measured it before using loose propellant and it averages 106#.

Here's what I use....

 

[GM54-120]

Knights very own 300gr 150gr pellet load data show 1929fps so i would love to know how you are getting 2100fps+ with a 300gr bullet.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Knights very own 300gr 150gr pellet load data show 1929fps so i would love to know how you are getting 2100fps+ with a 300gr bullet.

Is that question to the OP?

 

[GM54-120]

Yes because BH209 is not a recommended propellant in the Bighorn or any plunger gun.

 

[reelamin]

Knights very own 300gr 150gr pellet load data show 1929fps so i would love to know how you are getting 2100fps+ with a 300gr bullet.

Happy to share with you. Some minor variations depending on Sabot, bullet, etc. but these numbers are solid and repeatable. My rifle shooting a 300gr Saboted bullet produces 2075fps with 150gr of T73F using a #11 Cap/209 Primer. It also produces 2150fps with 120gr of BH209 with a #11 cap/209 Primer.

I used a 5gr Duplex load of T73F to kick off the BH209 with a #11 cap. The pressure curve with the cap and BH209 caused fragments to fly off and strike my arms and I got away from that. Sabotloader...helped me know what was going on with that. I have not experienced any issues with the FPJ/209 set up. Yes, it appears there is more blow back but I have not had anything fly out of the breech.

 

[reelamin]

More sizing and checking how I can make bullets fit properly. NOE does not make any mid sized bushings only in .001 increments. My bore diameter I'm pretty sure is right between .500 and .501. Bottom line...adjustable sizing die ordered so I can get the correct bullet/bore fit. Not a huge deal, but we are on hold for another week. I might try knurling my Barnes TEZ for better sabot grip and see if it helps or not.

 

[52Bore]

The heavier the bullet, the better it retains energy downrange.
If I had a plunger for elk, I’d shoot a 500gr over 85gr Black Powder at a MV about 1350fps.

 

[ENCORE50A]

More sizing and checking how I can make bullets fit properly. NOE does not make any mid sized bushings only in .001 increments. My bore diameter I'm pretty sure is right between .500 and .501. Bottom line...adjustable sizing die ordered so I can get the correct bullet/bore fit. Not a huge deal, but we are on hold for another week. I might try knurling my Barnes TEZ for better sabot grip and see if it helps or not.

Please share your results when you start using the adjustable die.

 

[reelamin]

So my stuff showed up early, and I went to work to find a better fit. I bruised my palm knurling bullets with a file to re-size. It took quite a bit of pressure and after doing 15 of nine different bullets it showed. Luckily they make a knurler that works well and is easy on the hands. I was able to expand all of them by at least .002 even the solid Barnes. My bore was exactly as I expected....right between to even thousandths. Go figure, but that is why they have adjustable sizing dies. No time to finish it with some shooting today as other things took some priority. This weekend and next week I can some shooting in between Christmas and all those events . .500 is too loose, .501 is too tight, .5005 is just right.

 

[ENCORE50A]

So my stuff showed up early, and I went to work to find a better fit. I bruised my palm knurling bullets with a file to re-size. It took quite a bit of pressure and after doing 15 of nine different bullets it showed. Luckily they make a knurler that works well and is easy on the hands. I was able to expand all of them by at least .002 even the solid Barnes. My bore was exactly as I expected....right between to even thousandths. Go figure, but that is why they have adjustable sizing dies. No time to finish it with some shooting today as other things took some priority. This weekend and next week I can some shooting in between Christmas and all those events . .500 is too loose, .501 is too tight, .5005 is just right.

Got to love the adjustable...….

I was sizing the different weight Fury bullets I was shooting and some require a different setting than others to obtain that 20-25# loading force. The 325's, which have been changed to 320 now, would size on "0" and give me 23#. The 275's however, required me to size them down 6 marks to maintain the same loading force of 23#.