NM Scopeless Muzzleloader Rule

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Jeff Hankins has a smokeless 45 cal muzzle loader which he named "Cyclops" which shoots a projectile at 3800 FPS and develops 11,000 ft. lbs..
He has a video which shows him dropping a deer at over 800 yards! The rifle weighs 32 pounds!

Maybe I can figure out a way to turn my single-shot 50BMG into a "Nitrofire/Firestick" loading system with the propellant in the cartridge and a fiber plug in the neck, and then load a smooth-sized bullet from the muzzle like the old gunsmith "Harry M. Pope" used to do...

 

[d414hiker]

Impressive rifle for sure but you’d literally need a mule to pack it around. This thing is a show piece not really a hunting rifle.

Jeff Hankins has a big back yard where he has this range setup which the deer frequent. Since the deer prefer to be far away from the shooting he decided to build a powerful long range smokeless muzzle loader. In another video he explained that he built it with a very heavy stock and also with a muzzle brake to reduce the recoil effect. The Rifle has almost 12,000 foot pounds at the muzzle. 350 grin bullet at 3800-3900 fps.

 

[d414hiker]

And what does this have to do with NM muzzleloaders?!

I don't know what a "NM Muzzleloader" is. I was trying to address the post regarding a muzzleloader that would be able to kill humanely at or beyond 400 yards. I've seen so many videos in which deer were shot even under 100 yards. They would run as if not even hit but they were found hours later or sometimes the next day. I hate to think of how much they may have suffered before they died.

 

[ElDiablo]

Gotcha. No doubt we have muzzys that will kill humanely at any reasonable range these days.

But….it’s easier to wound an animal at 1000 than at 100 yards.

 

[d414hiker]

Yes, Always true but more power via higher velocity will lower the wounding potential.

 

[Patched]

Here is an example of a very exceptional custom muzzle Loading Rifle made by jeff Hankins:

He was able to get a 3 inch group at 1000 yards.
His 45 cal rifle achieves well over 11,000 foot pounds of energy by pushing a 350 grain bullet
at 3800-3900 fps using imr 4198

Hankins special shooting creation is a fine piece of engineering and machine work, obviously performing marvelously for him…

However, I fail to see how his marvelous machine is akin to any sidelock “primitive“ black powder muzzleloader for which the individual States allowed special seasons and concessions in their game management programs.

When the special muzzloader seasons were finally set aside for ”Danny Boone” style hunting no one foresaw the onslaught of technology now widely exploited to slip under the letter of the law….totally ignoring the long forgotten spirit of the law and purpose.

My in-line 45cal shoots sabboted 200gr 40 cal bullets point blank out to 200yds.
as does every centerfire gun in the safe….THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY SPECIAL PRIMITIVE WEAPONS SEASON with equipment that performs like this….

The sidelock guys need the game animals to be “unspooked“ cuz it truly is 1 shot inside of 100yds.
As for Jeff Hankins, he and his marvelous machine should be required to hunt during the regular rifle season…and leave that muzzleloader tag for the real purpose it was created.
my 41/2 cents worth.

 

[BlackSmoke]

And besides…..that isn’t hunting…..it’s just shooting….which he is obviously good at. I’ll stick to sneaking up within 100 yards of them and hit them with a 300 grain bullet at 1750 fps. It does a fine job although I don’t have a video of it.

 

[user 30185]

My dogs better then your dog.....all depends on perspective. Lets go back to sharp sticks.
I have to agree my Scout made by Hankins is NOT primitive in the sense of its power, accuracy, lack of a cloud of choking smoke and optics. Other then shoving a bullet down the barrel and having only one shot, it is a high powered rifle.
We are meat hunters, going for just over a week with intentions of filling our tags or getting what we need. I have 6 tags to use as do the others. I don't want to track animals far, I don't want to be obscured by a cloud of smoke that prevents me from seeing which way the animal went, and I hate wounding a deer, worse yet, losing one.
When I was young, I was very good at still hunting and shooting running deer in the thick forests and alder meadows in Eastern Maine. Those days are gone and I don't have time to try and still hunt in the state I now hunt in. I did shoot one running last fall with my Scout.
Now there will be the guys that rave about the ethics of shooting running game....hence my remark above about sharp sticks. No matter what method anyone takes to harvest game, there will be someone that sneers that their way is the only way, my dogs better then your dog. Go on over to the .22 forums and mention shooting a squirrel thru the ribs and see how that goes......

 

[BlackSmoke]

if i needed to shoot squirrels to survive…..(nobody does)…..I would shoot them in the ribs every single time. Just not from 500 yards with a 50 bmg……

 

[Patched]

My dogs better then your dog.....all depends on perspective. Lets go back to sharp sticks.
I have to agree my Scout made by Hankins is NOT primitive in the sense of its power, accuracy, lack of a cloud of choking smoke and optics. Other then shoving a bullet down the barrel and having only one shot, it is a high powered rifle.
We are meat hunters, going for just over a week with intentions of filling our tags or getting what we need. I have 6 tags to use as do the others. I don't want to track animals far, I don't want to be obscured by a cloud of smoke that prevents me from seeing which way the animal went, and I hate wounding a deer, worse yet, losing one.
When I was young, I was very good at still hunting and shooting running deer in the thick forests and alder meadows in Eastern Maine. Those days are gone and I don't have time to try and still hunt in the state I now hunt in. I did shoot one running last fall with my Scout.
Now there will be the guys that rave about the ethics of shooting running game....hence my remark above about sharp sticks. No matter what method anyone takes to harvest game, there will be someone that sneers that their way is the only way, my dogs better then your dog. Go on over to the .22 forums and mention shooting a squirrel thru the ribs and see how that goes......

The subject of this thread was “glass optics on a muzzleloader“ feedback.
If we go back to sharp sticks…and there is a designated ”sharp stick” hunting season…..any weapon/caliber/ignition with a bayonet affixed would be okay with you…as long as it was 40 inches and had a point.

NM seems to be questioning the technology being used for its designated “primitive rifle“ season…probably because the public complained about tag availability.

When Nevada (my home) first issued muzzleloader season tags, the few of us muzzleloaders drew tags…today you don’t even see any sidelock shooters out there…and the cheap guns and easy use pellet/bullet/stainless steel format got everyone applying for the tags intended for “traditional“ flint/caplock hunters.

So it’s a little more than my dog, your dog or perspective…it’s more of a return to the actual reason a designated season was created.

 

[user 30185]

I could just as well go where I hunt with my CF rifles in season and do the same thing....does it make a difference to the deer what I kill them with? Or what week it is? Or what sights I use? I think it is great that there are still primitive seasons, like open sight only. But if the herd needs managing making it easier is the best way. When they created your special season, it was not for you, it was determined that the herd could 1: sustain the increase. 2: an increase was needed. 3: other methods were decreased. By shortening their season or amount of tags drawn. Not because they felt like creating a special group. Game management only takes into account the carrying capacity and other conditions that effect the herd. Period. Raking in more money is often a factor as well....

 

[Patched]

I could just as well go where I hunt with my CF rifles in season and do the same thing....does it make a difference to the deer what I kill them with? Or what week it is? Or what sights I use? I think it is great that there are still primitive seasons, like open sight only. But if the herd needs managing making it easier is the best way. When they created your special season, it was not for you, it was determined that the herd could 1: sustain the increase. 2: an increase was needed. 3: other methods were decreased. By shortening their season or amount of tags drawn. Not because they felt like creating a special group. Game management only takes into account the carrying capacity and other conditions that effect the herd. Period. Raking in more money is often a factor as well....

Sorry klook…but they did create a special muzzleloader season just for me and others like minded like me…just as they did for archers…a certain number of the management kills set aside for specific weapon harvesting.

Before the hordes hit the hills guns ablazing spooking all of God’s creatures, a quiet two weeks for archers to better make their 40 yd shot…….followed by two weeks of muzzleloader season so the flint/caplock hunters can better make their 80 yd shot on as yet unspooked game animals.

Centerfires can easily snipe game at 300,400 and beyond…and don’t actually need a special season.
State Fish and Game management departments do try and cater to the specific wants and needs of hunters. licenses and tags provide their revenue….states like Colorado probably oversell OTC tags but the other western states are trying to grow the herds.
The OP is interested in feedback concerning New Mexico going back to open sights…I say NO SCOPES on muzzleloaders.

 

[user 30185]

Your entitled to your opinion. I to mine. Just remember lots of people don't like hunting with dogs, lots of people don't like baiting, lots of people don't like trapping or snaring and on and on. When you isolate yourself with your little special interest and piss off all the others, who will support you in the end?

 

[Patched]

The OP’s interest in scope use and mine too is simply this:
If equipment equal to centerfire performance is allowed why even designate a special muzzleloader season?

The difference between a loose powder patched round ball flintlock with open sights ..
and a scoped in-line with powder pellets, sabboted highBC jacketed bullets is so great that they are not comparable weapons in performance or operation.

This is no “little“ special interest…archery hunters are accommodated for their very limited range as once were muzzleloaders with their range limits.

I say, as hunters and gun owners, we support and respect each others outdoor passions be it archery, trapping, fishing, muzzleloaders etc.

 

[user 30185]

I don't disagree, but what about the guys that want to spear a deer? How about the new airguns, I have had more then one person say they could kill a deer. DO they get a season? Breaking us down into subgroups is gonna bite us in the ass someday. I would submit that the muzzleloading crowd would not even exist if they had not allowed them to be used in shotgun only areas many years ago. That was brought on by STUPID people, like I said earlier, using magnum CF to hunt in suburbs. It caught on as I recall, mostly in kit form or custom builders. Don't forget the handicapped season, they allowed them to shoot from cars some years ago in Maine. A bunch of guys were watching a spikehorn that was between two houses debating what 100 yards was, most people have no clue about distances, when a car pulled up and didn't even stop rolling when the guy fired and killed the buck....I have lots of stupid people stories, and I was the zealot because I wanted people to go into the woods and hunt. Now we are talking about what I can hunt with,in a special season, just for me. Everyone draws the line in a different place, some have no line.
Since I likely will never hunt an Elk, let alone in NM, you use whatever power you have to change the laws. But limiting laws will limit you someday and if it's popular, people with enough money will flock to your state and take away your tags. $$$$ makes the rules.

 

[Patched]

I don't disagree, but what about the guys that want to spear a deer? How about the new airguns, I have had more then one person say they could kill a deer. DO they get a season? Breaking us down into subgroups is gonna bite us in the ass someday. I would submit that the muzzleloading crowd would not even exist if they had not allowed them to be used in shotgun only areas many years ago. That was brought on by STUPID people, like I said earlier, using magnum CF to hunt in suburbs. It caught on as I recall, mostly in kit form or custom builders. Don't forget the handicapped season, they allowed them to shoot from cars some years ago in Maine. A bunch of guys were watching a spikehorn that was between two houses debating what 100 yards was, most people have no clue about distances, when a car pulled up and didn't even stop rolling when the guy fired and killed the buck....I have lots of stupid people stories, and I was the zealot because I wanted people to go into the woods and hunt. Now we are talking about what I can hunt with,in a special season, just for me. Everyone draws the line in a different place, some have no line.
Since I likely will never hunt an Elk, let alone in NM, you use whatever power you have to change the laws. But limiting laws will limit you someday and if it's popular, people with enough money will flock to your state and take away your tags. $$$$ makes the rules.

You make a lot of valid points I can agree with….and I honestly don’t care what guys use to harvest their animal…buck knives, spears, airgun launched arrows etc….do your thing.

I too have seen a lotta stupid out there…after thinking about this with things you brought up…. I realize that a scope on some other guy’s gun doesn’t affect my hunting experience one bit…

What did happen is the scoped in-line guns seems to have increased tag applicants for muzzleloader tags…could be a lot of different reasons for that but I think it’s the centerfire like characteristics of in-lines ease of use, extended range, scopes.
Traditional open sights sidelocks are a totally different hunting tool.

In Nevada, the real advantage of muzzleloader season are the dates of the hunt…ruts and bugling elk are not set in the regular rifle season…

 

[ElDiablo]

What did happen is the scoped in-line guns seems to have increased tag applicants for muzzleloader tags…could be a lot of different reasons for that but I think it’s the centerfire like characteristics of in-lines ease of use, extended range, scopes.
Traditional open sights sidelocks are a totally different hunting tool.

I agree 100%!! Allowing the latest tech (scopes primarily) has led to thousands of guys (who have no real interest in muzzys) getting into the western big game muzzy draws.

And it’s worth pointing out that western big game hunting in general is totally different that eastern whitetail hunting. Our buck and bull tags are very limited in many places.

I’m all for more restrictive muzzy regs to bring back some of the challenge and weed out a few of the fair-weather applicants.

 

[Patched]

I agree 100%!! Allowing the latest tech (scopes primarily) has led to thousands of guys (who have no real interest in muzzys) getting into the western big game muzzy draws.

And it’s worth pointing out that western big game hunting in general is totally different that eastern whitetail hunting. Our buck and bull tags are very limited in many places.

I’m all for more restrictive muzzy regs to bring back some of the challenge and weed out a few of the fair-weather applicants.

I drew a resident Nevada muzzleloader elk tag last fall….it took me 17 years of applying to get that tag in my own state…the state is big enough that you can pretty much have hundreds of square miles to yourself.

Nevada isn’t handing out non-resident tags as a cash cow yet…

Well, I shot a 340 bull on opening morning and I know I won’t live long enough to ever get another Nevada elk tag for any season…apparently it’s one per customer per lifetime.

 

[Fullbore92]

I can say from experience here in WA, when the rules changed and allowed the use of 209 primers instead of only percussion caps, the amount of hunters increased by quite a bit.

 

[user 30185]

I fit that category. I only used a muzzleloader 2 years, borrowed it from my brother. It gave me another week of hunting and I got a small buck first day out. Old inline Traditions, 2 pellets max, powerbelt bullets, 209 and a scope. It took 4 hours to find the buck because he was long gone before the smoke cleared. After more then an hour searching, we pride ourselves on tracking skills, I had to call my brother to help. We stumbled on the blood trail over 100 yards in the opposite direction we surmised he went. I can guarantee you that 90+% of the people that call themselves hunters in that region would never have gotten that deer. But the next year I shot a coyote in the exact same spot and never found it after the smoke cleared. Blew a piece of bone out of him even. Jumped on the smokeless bandwagon years later and never looked back. However, I really only do it because I hunt with a group, they travel a great distance and have custom guns. It is a 6 1/2 hour drive for me even. But we take that time because the weather is warmer and the hunt pleasant on private properties. I am there to fill my freezer, not take the trophy of a lifetime. My tradition is with those friends and relatives and CF rifles and rabbit hunting with a beagle. I think the point about Whitetails in the East and Elk in the mountains is spot on.