What's the reaL STORY?

[Two Feathers]

Howdy folks:
Stoney 1 here with a question. I've been doing some research and have found an interesting fact. Propellant ( Pyrodex) and Holy Black have vast differences in their ability to ignite with sparks?
True Black Powder is an explosive, where Pyrodex propellant is not. Black Powder will ignite with a spark, Pyrodex won't, it requires a much higher temperature and sustained flame to ignite, such as by a percussion cap. Here's my question; and I'm really looking for someone with experience in this situation. I've asked a half a dozen different people and I get different answers from each one. I know Flint won't ignite Pyrodex in a flash pan because the spark doesn't produce enough heat too ignite it, BUT... if I have 4F in my pan and Pyrodex in the barrel, will the 4F create enough heat to ignite the Pyrodex? No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on this, or doesn't want to.
 I'm curious to hear what the members have to say about this puzzle. I'm hoping to hear from someone who actually uses Pyrodex in a flint lock charge with 4-F Black in the pan or HAS TRIED this and found out that it does or does not not work!
Thanks folks:
Stoney1

 

[AndyinEverson]

In my experience...
"Shooting" flintlocks loaded with Pyrodex  even when primed with 4F....Will  cause hang fires...failure to fire and the old "flash in the Pan".
Do not use Pyrodex in a flintlock.

I have tried Pyrodex in both my replicas and original flintlocks...both with 4F for prime and Pyrodex for prime and have never had good results.

My best results have been with a good lock , sharp flint , clean vent and pure black powder in the load and pan....Never Pyrodex.
Andy

 

[strong eagle]

to shoot a powder that isnt black powder in a flint shooter this is how you do it. put real black just past the ignition hole and then the other powder on it. why use the horrible pyrodex in a duplex load in a flint rifle. it is the worst powder of them all in every way. their is a flint club on the east coast that mainly uses blackhorn 209 powder with a charge of real black under it to start it. the results are that no cleaning between rounds and extreme accuracy. also i have known flint shooters that are local  that use 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. they have won the matches and also 4f doesnt require much cleaning between shots. ive used 4f in a 50 cal percussion side lock and it worked very well.very little cleaning between shots. didnt blow back the lock either. i see nothing wrong with 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. if your going to use dublex loads, dont use pyrodex. it will ruin your gun with rust no matter how much you clean. use real black behind blackhorn 209 or go to 4f all the way. bet this post causes a shxxxxxxxxx storm but i will stand by it as well as dozens of others out their ive talked to. let errrr rip.

 

[strong eagle]

to shoot a powder that isnt black powder in a flint shooter this is how you do it. put real black just past the ignition hole and then the other powder on it. why use the horrible pyrodex in a duplex load in a flint rifle. it is the worst powder of them all in every way. their is a flint club on the east coast that mainly uses blackhorn 209 powder with a charge of real black under it to start it. the results are that no cleaning between rounds and extreme accuracy. also i have known flint shooters that are local  that use 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. they have won the matches and also 4f doesnt require much cleaning between shots. ive used 4f in a 50 cal percussion side lock and it worked very well.very little cleaning between shots. didnt blow back the lock either. i see nothing wrong with 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. if your going to use dublex loads, dont use pyrodex. it will ruin your gun with rust no matter how much you clean. use real black behind blackhorn 209 or go to 4f all the way. bet this post causes a shxxxxxxxxx storm but i will stand by it as well as dozens of others out their ive talked to. let errrr rip.

 

[strong eagle]

to shoot a powder that isnt black powder in a flint shooter this is how you do it. put real black just past the ignition hole and then the other powder on it. why use the horrible pyrodex in a duplex load in a flint rifle. it is the worst powder of them all in every way. their is a flint club on the east coast that mainly uses blackhorn 209 powder with a charge of real black under it to start it. the results are that no cleaning between rounds and extreme accuracy. also i have known flint shooters that are local  that use 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. they have won the matches and also 4f doesnt require much cleaning between shots. ive used 4f in a 50 cal percussion side lock and it worked very well.very little cleaning between shots. didnt blow back the lock either. i see nothing wrong with 4f down the barrel as well as in the pan. if your going to use dublex loads, dont use pyrodex. it will ruin your gun with rust no matter how much you clean. use real black behind blackhorn 209 or go to 4f all the way. bet this post causes a shxxxxxxxxx storm but i will stand by it as well as dozens of others out their ive talked to. let errrr rip.

 

[strong eagle]

sorry for the multi same post, my computer wouldnt take the first one then it took all three. blame the old computer i have.

 

[Fyrstyk]

I'll go along with the first responder to this topic.  I Tried Pyrodex in my Hatfield once when I didn't have any real black.  I got her to go off a few times, but ignition was iffy at best, with lots of FITP.  Then i tried some 4F as a 'Kicker" charge, About 10 grains worth, with the rest of the load Pyrodex.  Ignition was good, but lots of hang fires.  I never tried Blackhorn, so I don't know how it works in a rock lock. 
For flint use, stick with the real stuff, black powder.  When i couldn't get any black powder locally, I broke down and bought a percussion conversion lock for my Hatfield so I could still shoot it.  I now order my Black Powder from the Maine Powder House.  I should never run out of the real stuff again.  I also agree with Strong Eagle that Pyrodex is a bear to clean up.  Real Black Powder is more forgiving and easier to clean up after.

 

[exMember]

Its iffy, I used to push a little 4fg goex into the touch hole behind the pyrodex to use as an igniter which helped a lot.

Goex can be easily ordered in 5lb lots.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Howdy folks:
Stoney 1 here with a question. I've been doing some research and have found an interesting fact. Propellant ( Pyrodex) and Holy Black have vast differences in their ability to ignite with sparks?
True Black Powder is an explosive, where Pyrodex propellant is not. Black Powder will ignite with a spark, Pyrodex won't, it requires a much higher temperature and sustained flame to ignite, such as by a percussion cap. Here's my question; and I'm really looking for someone with experience in this situation. I've asked a half a dozen different people and I get different answers from each one. I know Flint won't ignite Pyrodex in a flash pan because the spark doesn't produce enough heat too ignite it, BUT... if I have 4F in my pan and Pyrodex in the barrel, will the 4F create enough heat to ignite the Pyrodex? No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on this, or doesn't want to.
 I'm curious to hear what the members have to say about this puzzle. I'm hoping to hear from someone who actually uses Pyrodex in a flint lock charge with 4-F Black in the pan or HAS TRIED this and found out that it does or does not not work!
Thanks folks:
Stoney1

You have gotten good responses. But, the only way to answer to your own satisfaction is to try it for yourself. But, I question why anyone would even want to attempt to do this. :scratch:

 

[Buck Conner1]

John Baird (Buckskin Report) did some testing when the Pyrodex type powders came on the market. He did as Jonathan just stated and had the same findings. Then he wrote that he put a few grains (can't remember how many), but not very much down the barrel before adding his Pyrodex charge, then primed with 4FFFF Goex. His reasoning was to eliminated pushing powder in the vent hole. Claimed it worked ....  I personally have never like Pyrodex or had much to do with it other than used it to blow up a rock that was need moved (still not as good as Goex even for blowing things up).

 

[Two Feathers]

Howdy folks:
Stoney 1 here with a question. I've been doing some research and have found an interesting fact. Propellant ( Pyrodex) and Holy Black have vast differences in their ability to ignite with sparks?
True Black Powder is an explosive, where Pyrodex propellant is not. Black Powder will ignite with a spark, Pyrodex won't, it requires a much higher temperature and sustained flame to ignite, such as by a percussion cap. Here's my question; and I'm really looking for someone with experience in this situation. I've asked a half a dozen different people and I get different answers from each one. I know Flint won't ignite Pyrodex in a flash pan because the spark doesn't produce enough heat too ignite it, BUT... if I have 4F in my pan and Pyrodex in the barrel, will the 4F create enough heat to ignite the Pyrodex? No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on this, or doesn't want to.
 I'm curious to hear what the members have to say about this puzzle. I'm hoping to hear from someone who actually uses Pyrodex in a flint lock charge with 4-F Black in the pan or HAS TRIED this and found out that it does or does not not work!
Thanks folks:
Stoney1

You have gotten good responses. But, the only way to answer to your own satisfaction is to try it for yourself. But, I question why anyone would even want to attempt to do this. :scratch:

Rifleman1776
Good remark!!!!
 Here's the "Rest of the Story." I'm trying to make this LESS complicated, for the guy that I built the rifle for. He's my Doctor and as you might suspect a bit NOT "hands on" with Black Powder. Last year, I built him a .50 cal. percussion. He loved it so much that he wanted a flinter for the flint only season here in PA. Of course, had I known THEN that he'd want a flinter, I'd never have gotten him Pyrodex, I'd have just bought him Goex, that's what I use.
He depends on me to set him up with everything that he needs because he really has NO idea about anything BP? I gave him all my back issues of Muzzle Loader magazine to help educate him in the fine art of Flinters???
I can't imagine making it harder (not to mention more dangerous , costly, and confusing for the guy) than it already is? When I say dangerous, I'm speaking of giving someone 2 types of explosive powders, something that they know NOTHING about, and expecting there to NOT be an episode that involves carnage and destruction. :shock:  I feel personally responsible for his well being through this learning curve. I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself, would NEVER pour 4F down a barrel for any reason, maybe in a caliber handgun, but that's it. Anyway... thanks for your input.
God bless:
Stoney1

 

[exMember]

Dave, a little 4fg goex doesn't hurt. I did that for many years while shooting pyrodex and American pioneer in my first flinter.

 

[Two Feathers]

Dave, a little 4fg goex doesn't hurt. I did that for many years while shooting pyrodex and American pioneer in my first flinter.

Frontier Gander
Thanks, but since I need to get him Goex anyway, I'll just get him 2 pounds, one of 4F and one of 2F He can keep the 2F Pyrodex for his Percussion. That will lessen him possibly confusing the two resulting in no ignition while looking at a nice White tail?
Thanks
Dave, (Stoney1)

 

[Two Feathers]

In my experience...
"Shooting" flintlocks loaded with Pyrodex  even when primed with 4F....Will  cause hang fires...failure to fire and the old "flash in the Pan".
Do not use Pyrodex in a flintlock.

I have tried Pyrodex in both my replicas and original flintlocks...both with 4F for prime and Pyrodex for prime and have never had good results.

My best results have been with a good lock , sharp flint , clean vent and pure black powder in the load and pan....Never Pyrodex.
Andy

AndyinEverson and everyone else who replied to my question.
Thank you all for your input. I've gotten my answers and I've made up my mind about what to do. If you look at my response to Rifleman1776, you'll see why I asked this, AND I was curious for my own knowledge. I (personally) only use real BP, Goex, Shutzen, etc. but this guy already has Pyrodex. I (again personally) HATE the stuff. Why God let someone replace Black with a sub is beyond me. I know sub is a lot cheaper, but "if you can't stand the heat" as they say???Thanks.
God bless:
Stoney1, also Dave or Two Feathers, take your pick

 

[exMember]

:Red tup: understood! He should be real happy with that flinter buddy.

 

[AndyinEverson]

You are very welcome Stoney1....
Glad to have helped out in anyway that I can...what's the point of having knowledge of something , if you can't pass it on...
Andy

 

[Two Feathers]

You are very welcome Stoney1....
Glad to have helped out in anyway that I can...what's the point of having knowledge of something , if you can't pass it on...
Andy

Andy
 I couldn't agree more. I just called my buddy's gun shop, he has Goex for $24.95 a pound, so I guess I know where I'm going Monday. Thanks.
Stoney, Dave

 

[burlesontom]

If he is a doctor he ought to be smart enough to know which powder to use which gun. Remember most pioneers could not read but they loaded and shot flintlocks all their lives and knew how to load and shoot before they were 10 years old. So ole' Doc should be able to handle it. If nothing else just take away the Pyrodex and replace all his powder with black powder and be done with it.

I don't own a flintlock but have shot one. And I have the winning bid on one right now on GB and if I get the gun I will use BP all the way in it. But I have many times used a small amount of BP in my rifle as a kicker charge when using Pyrodex. The charge was so small I didn't even measure it. And it works fine and gives instant ignition.

 

[burlesontom]

Wow $25 a pound??? Plus tax? I would just order a case from powderinc and get two or three guys to go in on the order. Thats what I did the last time I bought real BP. If you do that it should run you around $16 a pound.

https://powderinc.com/

 

[Two Feathers]

If he is a doctor he ought to be smart enough to know which powder to use which gun. Remember most pioneers could not read but they loaded and shot flintlocks all their lives and knew how to load and shoot before they were 10 years old. So ole' Doc should be able to handle it. If nothing else just take away the Pyrodex and replace all his powder with black powder and be done with it.

I don't own a flintlock but have shot one. And I have the winning bid on one right now on GB and if I get the gun I will use BP all the way in it. But I have many times used a small amount of BP in my rifle as a kicker charge when using Pyrodex. The charge was so small I didn't even measure it. And it works fine and gives instant ignition.

Howdy
 You'd think... wouldn't you? I'm just not going to trust that assumption, plus why add to the confusion if you don't really need to? Less options is better in my opinion.
 
 As for your first idea. I'm planning on building myself a .32 cal. squirrel rifle in percussion, so I might just offer to buy the Pyrodex off of him? Thanks for the reply.
God bless:
Stoney