What's the reaL STORY?

[Two Feathers]

Wow $25 a pound??? Plus tax?  I would just order a case from powderinc and get two or three guys to go in on the order. Thats what I did the last time I bought real BP. If you do that it should run you around $16 a pound.

https://powderinc.com/

The WOW messes me up? Is that good WOW or a bad WOW. Around here 25 bucks a pound for REAL BP is a pretty good deal! I wouldn't go through more than a pound in what little life I have left!  :no: I still have a half a pound in my horn from 1977.  :shock:
Thanks:
Stoney

 

[burlesontom]

Thats a bad wow. $25 a pound is crazy expensive. Did you look at the link I posted? You can buy a case of powder and it works out to around $16 a pound for real BP. You can buy real BP from Graf & sons for around $16 a pound but you have to pay the hazmat fee.

Its hard to believe you are a custom rifle builder but you have half a pound left from 40 years ago. I shoot half a pound or more everytime I go shooting. I counted up a few weeks ago and I have 31 pounds of real BP. Five pounds of Pyrodex and 4 pounds of Aliiant MZ and would buy more BP if I could get someone to split a 25 pound case. Without powder and balls and caps or flints a BP rifle is just an awkward stick.

 

[Two Feathers]

Thats a bad wow. $25 a pound is crazy expensive. Did you look at the link I posted? You can buy a case of powder and it works out to around $16 a pound for real BP. You can buy real BP from Graf & sons for around $16 a pound but you have to pay the hazmat fee.

Its hard to believe you are a custom rifle builder but you have half a pound left from 40 years ago. I shoot half a pound or more everytime I go shooting. I counted up a few weeks ago and I have 31 pounds of real BP. Five pounds of Pyrodex and 4 pounds of Aliiant MZ and would buy more BP if I could get someone to split a 25 pound case. Without powder and balls and caps or flints a BP rifle is just an awkward stick.

burlesontom
I have NO need for a case of powder. If I gave the impression that I'm a "custom" rifle builder, I'm sorry. I'm just a guy who builds rifles from kits for friends. As for still having a half a pound of powder from 40 years ago... yup, I do. I had a stroke in 2013, and that destroyed most of my life. I haven't fired a muzzle loader since 2017, and that was the first one I built for my Doctor, prior to that it was probably about 1984? Sorry if I misled you, it was unintentional. I never used the words custom rifle builder. I'm a knife maker. Check out my things in The Mountain Man Emporium. All were made by me except the last item that belongs to Frontier Gander. I have built rifles from scratch, but here again, that was back in the 70's. I'm 69 yrs. old. Now I just sit around waiting to die, while I build knives and rifles. Sorry for the confusion.Thanks for your insight into the best place to buy BP. I'll tell my Doctor.
Best regards:
Stoney

 

[burlesontom]

Hi Stoney. I understand better now. I have had my own health issues including one of the mini strokes that put me head first in the middle of the garage floor about 6 years ago. So I get it.

And yes I thought you must be a custom rifle builder. I have built a few guns from kits but have never taken on a full scratch build with just parts and a rough cut stock. I just last night watched a video on Youtube called Colonial Gunsmith and the builder made everything from raw materials just the way it was done a few centuries ago. That was neat and way above any skill level I will ever have.

As for a case of powder I am a supply freak. Its the way I have always been. If I set out to do something I make sure I have all the supplies I will need for a long time. When I started casting lead bullets I hit every tire shop and scrap yard in the area. Now I have around 1400 pounds of lead and Linotype on hand.

Anyway I still think $25 a pound is expensive. At 70grs a shot thats only 100 shots per can.

 

[Muley Hunter]

To make it as easy as possible for the doctor. Tell him to buy Goex 3F and use it in the pan and the main charge.

Better yet since he's a doctor and can afford it. Buy Swiss 3F.

 

[Two Feathers]

To make it as easy as possible for the doctor. Tell him to buy Goex 3F and use it in the pan and the main charge.

Better yet since he's a doctor and can afford it. Buy Swiss 3F.

Hi Pete
 Actually that had been suggested, and I considered it, but then your other thought came to mind. He's a Doctor, he can afford it. I still won't dick him on Swiss, that's about $35.00 a LB. here. No matter how much money you have you still don't want to get screwed.
I remember buying Goex for $5.00 a pound a looooong time ago!
I didn't charge him a cent for building the rifle. I just billed him for the kit and whatever I spent out of my pocket for building supplies.
I have a beautiful period knife that I'm working on today. I can't wait to get it done. It's driving me crazy, I've been at it for a week! Any way, thanks for your input.
God bless:
Stoney

 

[Buck Conner1]

I got a deal from Coonies on Goex about 15 years ago, had to purchase at least (6) cases mixed at $4.00 a pound. Our club and a few other dealers and myself got (100) cases but we had to haul it. That was the scary part coming across Kansas in a rain and lighting storm.  

I still have a half dozen cans of 3FFF, shoot it in everything, even my cartridge guns. You should see guys standing around when I shoot my 8MM Mauser at the range and they smell the smoke. One guy commented "No wonder they lost the war, hell you can smell them everytime they shoot ???"     :ttups:    :slaps:

 

[Muley Hunter]

To make it as easy as possible for the doctor. Tell him to buy Goex 3F and use it in the pan and the main charge.

Better yet since he's a doctor and can afford it. Buy Swiss 3F.

Hi Pete
 Actually that had been suggested, and I considered it, but then your other thought came to mind. He's a Doctor, he can afford it. I still won't dick him on Swiss, that's about $35.00 a LB. here. No matter how much money you have you still don't want to get screwed.
I remember buying Goex for $5.00 a pound a looooong time ago!
I didn't charge him a cent for building the rifle. I just billed him for the kit and whatever I spent out of my pocket for building supplies.
I have a beautiful period knife that I'm working on today. I can't wait to get it done. It's driving me crazy, I've been at it for a week! Any way, thanks for your input.
God bless:
Stoney

 You'rea good friend to him. Swiss is getting out of hand but all powder prices are going up. There was a time when I used nothing but Swiss but it was half the price it is now. It is the best though.

I had good results using 3F in both the pan and main charge. It sure makes things simple. I couldn't tell the difference in using 4F in the pan. I'm sure it's a tiny amount of time but I couldn't feel it.

 

[Two Feathers]

To make it as easy as possible for the doctor. Tell him to buy Goex 3F and use it in the pan and the main charge.

Better yet since he's a doctor and can afford it. Buy Swiss 3F.

Hi Pete
 Actually that had been suggested, and I considered it, but then your other thought came to mind. He's a Doctor, he can afford it. I still won't dick him on Swiss, that's about $35.00 a LB. here. No matter how much money you have you still don't want to get screwed.
I remember buying Goex for $5.00 a pound a looooong time ago!
I didn't charge him a cent for building the rifle. I just billed him for the kit and whatever I spent out of my pocket for building supplies.
I have a beautiful period knife that I'm working on today. I can't wait to get it done. It's driving me crazy, I've been at it for a week! Any way, thanks for your input.
God bless:
Stoney

 You'rea good friend to him. Swiss is getting out of hand but all powder prices are going up. There was a time when I used nothing but Swiss but it was half the price it is now. It is the best though.

I had good results using 3F in both the pan and main charge. It sure makes things simple. I couldn't tell the difference in using 4F in the pan. I'm sure it's a tiny amount of time but I couldn't feel it.

Thanks Pete.
 I try to be good to every one. I was raised that way. Yes, one powder would be better, but as a purist, I've always been 2F charge and 4F in the pan so it's hard to break that cycle. Thanks again. I'd like to show you the finished rifle, but I can't figure out how to post pictures? Frontier Gander always does it for me, and I've imposed on him enough with this tutorial. If you send an email to my address [email protected]. I can reply with pics. to you from there.
God bless:
Dave

 

[Muley Hunter]

Purist to what? Do you think the mountain men or hunters in general back in those days used two powders? I doubt anybody did as only one powder was available. So, doing it the traditional way would be with one powder.

BTW..Nothing purist about Pyrodex or duplex loads either. 

 

[Two Feathers]

Purist to what? Do you think the mountain men or hunters in general back in those days used two powders? I doubt anybody did as only one powder was available. So, doing it the traditional way would be with one powder.

BTW..Nothing purist about Pyrodex or duplex loads either. 

Pete
 Thank you. I myself, have never used Pyrodex. I provided  it for my doctor for safety reasons (not as volatile). I have never used a Duplex load either, never even heard of it until this discussion?
 Are you certain that 3Fg will ignite in the pan? If so, how would you measure it against real BP.? I have him using 90 grains of Pyrodex per load in his percussion. I know that the finer the BP the more explosive, so would he use the same amount of 3Fg as 2Fg? Thanks. Maybe I went overboard on the "purist" comment??  
God bless:
Stoney

 

[Buck Conner1]

I have and have had original flinters that have touch holes bigger than anything we have today, some are from use but most were made larger to use one powder for charging and shooting. In the time of battle one wouldn't have time to fumble around for another horn.


Osborn Russell wrote that most of the mountain men he has encountered carried two horns, (1) was with his shooting bag and (1) was a larger horn used as a storage horn, no mention of a priming horn. Like Pete mentioned the powders available were very poor with only a couple available, one for shooting cannon and a finer powder for hand and shoulder arms. There are many accounts from men like Carson, Medina, Toblin and others that when questioned about their equipment only mention one powder horn and sometimes mention a storage horn, nothing of a priming horn.


Some museums have examples of powders, there is no way from the size of the blasting/cannon powder of working in a sporting arm. 


"A" or "blasting grade" powder - the preferred powder of choice for fireworks/cannon and blasting.


"g" or "sporting grade" powder - preferred for firearms use being finer.
__________________________________________________

FIREARMS HISTORY, TECHNOLOGY & DEVELOPMENT
How powder grain sizes are classified in the US.

The primary difference between the 'A' and 'g' grades is in the manufacturing process. Both are manufactured in the same way initially, but at the end, the 'g' grade powders are polished in a tumbler with a tiny amount of graphite, to polish the grains and make them flow easily. The 'A' grade powders are not usually tumbled, and if they are tumbled, it is just for a short amount of time to remove any sharp edges.

Now on to the mystery behind the letter 'F'. The letter 'F' stands for "Fine" and dates back to the time when the grains were designated F or C (for "coarse" grains). The number of times the letter F occurs in the powder grade shows the average size of the powder grains. The more times the letter F occurs in the name, the smaller the grains. What this means is that the size of "FFFg" grains are smaller than "FFg" grains, and "FFFFg" is even smaller than these two. When black powder is manufactured, the grains are sorted through sieves of standard sizes and classified that way.

Note: the first 3 grades are intended for use with cannon. The A-1, A-2 and A-3 grades are generally used for artillery blanks used for firing gun salutes. Fg is made for using in large bore rifles and shotguns (8-gauge and larger).

FFg powder is used historical for small arms such as muskets, fusils, rifles and large pistols. FFFg powder is for smaller caliber rifles (below .45 caliber), pistols, cap-and-ball revolvers, derringers etc. FFFFg and FFFFFg are mostly used as priming powder for flintlocks in later years or found in Europe. 

There are two grades of powder intended to be used in a historical re-enactment and the FFg powder was meant for the main powder charge of a flintlock rifle, while the FFFFg powder was intended to be used in the pan of the flintlock as a priming powder. (Modern thinking).

Similarly, the A-grade powders are classified into various grain size ranges (FA, FFA, FFFA, FFFFA, FFFFFA, FFFFFFA, FFFFFFFA, Meal-D and Meal-F (Meal Fine) and Meal XF (Meal Extra-Fine)). However, since these A-grade powders are intended for fireworks and quarries, we will not study them here.

______________________________________

 

[Buck Conner1]

Purist to what? Do you think the mountain men or hunters in general back in those days used two powders? I doubt anybody did as only one powder was available. So, doing it the traditional way would be with one powder.

BTW..Nothing purist about Pyrodex or duplex loads either. 

Back in the late 1930's a collector friend of my father wanted to have a finer powder for a silver mounted small horn that he called a priming horn. Later found it wasn't a priming horn it was a salt or sugar horn. Either way, don't get wet or its junk...  :scratch:


My father and his friend decided to grind 2FF into something like our 4FFFF of today, went to the drug store and purchased a mortar and pestle. Spent a lot of time grinding the powder in their new glass toy, later my father said that was a waste of time.

 

[Two Feathers]

Buck
 Thanks??? So, after we wade through all this technical BS, what is the best option? Thank you.
Stoney

I have and have had original flinters that have touch holes bigger than anything we have today, some are from use but most were made larger to use one powder for charging and shooting. In the time of battle one wouldn't have time to fumble around for another horn.


Osborn Russell wrote that most of the mountain men he has encountered carried two horns, (1) was with his shooting bag and (1) was a larger horn used as a storage horn, no mention of a priming horn. Like Pete mentioned the powders available were very poor with only a couple available, one for shooting cannon and a finer powder for hand and shoulder arms. There are many accounts from men like Carson, Medina, Toblin and others that when questioned about their equipment only mention one powder horn and sometimes mention a storage horn, nothing of a priming horn.


Some museums have examples of powders, there is no way from the size of the blasting/cannon powder of working in a sporting arm. 


"A" or "blasting grade" powder - the preferred powder of choice for fireworks/cannon and blasting.


"g" or "sporting grade" powder - preferred for firearms use being finer.
__________________________________________________

FIREARMS HISTORY, TECHNOLOGY & DEVELOPMENT
How powder grain sizes are classified in the US.

The primary difference between the 'A' and 'g' grades is in the manufacturing process. Both are manufactured in the same way initially, but at the end, the 'g' grade powders are polished in a tumbler with a tiny amount of graphite, to polish the grains and make them flow easily. The 'A' grade powders are not usually tumbled, and if they are tumbled, it is just for a short amount of time to remove any sharp edges.

Now on to the mystery behind the letter 'F'. The letter 'F' stands for "Fine" and dates back to the time when the grains were designated F or C (for "coarse" grains). The number of times the letter F occurs in the powder grade shows the average size of the powder grains. The more times the letter F occurs in the name, the smaller the grains. What this means is that the size of "FFFg" grains are smaller than "FFg" grains, and "FFFFg" is even smaller than these two. When black powder is manufactured, the grains are sorted through sieves of standard sizes and classified that way.

Note: the first 3 grades are intended for use with cannon. The A-1, A-2 and A-3 grades are generally used for artillery blanks used for firing gun salutes. Fg is made for using in large bore rifles and shotguns (8-gauge and larger).

FFg powder is used historical for small arms such as muskets, fusils, rifles and large pistols. FFFg powder is for smaller caliber rifles (below .45 caliber), pistols, cap-and-ball revolvers, derringers etc. FFFFg and FFFFFg are mostly used as priming powder for flintlocks in later years or found in Europe. 

There are two grades of powder intended to be used in a historical re-enactment and the FFg powder was meant for the main powder charge of a flintlock rifle, while the FFFFg powder was intended to be used in the pan of the flintlock as a priming powder. (Modern thinking).

Similarly, the A-grade powders are classified into various grain size ranges (FA, FFA, FFFA, FFFFA, FFFFFA, FFFFFFA, FFFFFFFA, Meal-D and Meal-F (Meal Fine) and Meal XF (Meal Extra-Fine)). However, since these A-grade powders are intended for fireworks and quarries, we will not study them here.

______________________________________

Thanks Buck
 After we wade through all of this technical BS, what is my best option?
Stoney

 

[Muley Hunter]

Purist to what? Do you think the mountain men or hunters in general back in those days used two powders? I doubt anybody did as only one powder was available. So, doing it the traditional way would be with one powder.

BTW..Nothing purist about Pyrodex or duplex loads either. 

Pete
 Thank you. I myself, have never used Pyrodex. I provided  it for my doctor for safety reasons (not as volatile). I have never used a Duplex load either, never even heard of it until this discussion?
 Are you certain that 3Fg will ignite in the pan? If so, how would you measure it against real BP.? I have him using 90 grains of Pyrodex per load in his percussion. I know that the finer the BP the more explosive, so would he use the same amount of 3Fg as 2Fg? Thanks. Maybe I went overboard on the "purist" comment??  
God bless:
Stoney

I believe Pyrodex has a bit more power than Goex. For his 90gr of Pyrodex RS i'd use 80gr of Goes 3F. If he thinks the recoil feels a bit softer than the Pyrodex go to 90gr of Goex.

Yes, 3F will ignite the pan power just fine. It's all I used. Graf's and Sons sells Goex for $18.xx. Hazmat and shipping will boost the price to $24 or so. They have a 5lb minimum order. What is he paying for Pyrodex?

btw..Pyrodex has the same three ingredients that Goex has, but also has some other stuff added to it. It can blow if you're not careful. I had a friend who was loading cartridges with Pyrodex and got careless and it blew. We believe it was from the dust from Pyro that ignited it.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Buck
 Thanks??? So, after we wade through all this technical BS, what is the best option? Thank you.

YOU BLOW ONE UP, YOU'LL THINK "TECHNICAL BS"​

After we wade through all of this technical BS, what is my best option?
Stoney

Do as Pete has suggested, your Doc going hunting maybe but most likely won't find the time. 

Like the old saying - KISS - "keep it simple stupid".

 

[Two Feathers]

Purist to what? Do you think the mountain men or hunters in general back in those days used two powders? I doubt anybody did as only one powder was available. So, doing it the traditional way would be with one powder.

BTW..Nothing purist about Pyrodex or duplex loads either. 

Pete
 Thank you. I myself, have never used Pyrodex. I provided  it for my doctor for safety reasons (not as volatile). I have never used a Duplex load either, never even heard of it until this discussion?
 Are you certain that 3Fg will ignite in the pan? If so, how would you measure it against real BP.? I have him using 90 grains of Pyrodex per load in his percussion. I know that the finer the BP the more explosive, so would he use the same amount of 3Fg as 2Fg? Thanks. Maybe I went overboard on the "purist" comment??  
God bless:
Stoney

I b3elieve Pyrodex has a bit more power than Goex. For his 90gr of Pyrodex RS i'd use 80gr of Goes 3F. If he thinks the recoil feels a bit softer than the Pyrodex go to 90gr of Goex.

Yes, 3F will ignite the pan power just fine. It's all I used. Graf's and Sons sells Goex for $18.xx. Hazmat and shipping will boost the price to $24 or so. They have a 5lb minimum order. What is he paying for Pyrodex?

btw..Pyrodex has the same three ingredients that Goex has, but also has some other stuff added to it. It can blow if you're not careful. I had a friend who was loading cartridges with Pyrodex and got careless and it blew. We believe it was from the dust from Pyro that ignited it.

Pete
 I think I paid around $23.00 for a pound of 2FF Pyrodex last year for him?
 I'll take your recommendation and just get one pound of 3FFF tomorrow.
I didn't know that Pyro and Goex had the same ingredients? It seems to makes sense, I just didn't know it.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Stoney

 

[Two Feathers]

Buck
 Thanks??? So, after we wade through all this technical BS, what is the best option? Thank you.

YOU BLOW ONE UP, YOU'LL THINK "TECHNICAL BS"​

After we wade through all of this technical BS, what is my best option?
Stoney

Do as Pete has suggested, your Doc going hunting maybe but most likely won't find the time. 

Like the old saying - KISS - "keep it simple stupid".

Thanks Buck
 We'll go with the 3F Goex and dial it back a smidge. I have NO intentions of Blowing one up, that's why I don't mess with the stuff, I know what I know and I leave it at that. I get my advice here. I'm not stupid enough to dick with something that has the potential to kill me or someone I know. I didn't live to be 69 years old by being a precocious idiot.
Stoney

 

[Muley Hunter]

Everybody who shoots with BP knows to be careful. (well almost) I'm sure you trained the doc to be safe.

 

[Two Feathers]

Everybody who shoots with BP knows to be careful. (well almost) I'm sure you trained the doc to be safe.

Pete
 Thanks for the info. I hope I trained him to be safe? I pounded it into his head for hours last year when we sighted in the .50 cal. percussion I built for him. Thank you again, I always know where to come for good advice.
God bless:
Stoney