Newbie In Need of Help Please

[Timberelk]

Try a different scope that rifle should shoot well with bh209 without swabbing between shots.

I was using the BH tubes to measure my grains by volume but it seems like it's a very inaccurate way to measure the power and I don't have a reloading scale to weight the BH 209 by grain


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[Timberelk]

Why are you pulling the breech plug so often? Its not necessary to do so that frequently. I've noticed that folks new to inlining tend do so this. While there is no harm per se, its a lot of extra work. Swab from the muzzle, use a rod guide and you won't hurt anything, and pull the plug when you're done for the day.
The Omega is the about the best inline made, I'm partial to the Black Diamonds myself, and are pretty straightforward. My old one gave best results shooting 44 caliber XTP's. Noticeably better than the 45' s my BD dotes on. Best of luck!

Pulling the breach plug to make sure I clean out the crud ring that the pellets leave because when I don't clean that ring, it makes seating the sabot/bullet very hard for the last 1" or so


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[MrTom]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

I have an Impact that took quite a bit of pellet shooting to get it accurate, like 150 rounds using both 2 and 3 pellet loads with 300 grain bullets. The accuracy seemed to improve with each shot, cleaning between the shots. When I switched to 209 it was very accurate, 4 of five shots touching at 100 yards now. My Accura has the bergerra barrel and has been a good shooter with 209 right from the box and I am getting like accuracy from it with the same identical load of 77 weighed grains of 209 with a 300 grain XTP. It may be that your gun just needs to shot in a bit more.

Bullet diameter can come into play too. All of my shooting is done with .44 cal XTP bullets, but I have some others in the same size that are going to be shot before the season opens just to be sure I can't tighten things up. Each of my three inlines will open groups us as soon as I start pushing .45 cal bullets.

In my guns the sabots used makes a slight difference....about like what your group pictures show. You may need to work thru a few different brands and styles of sabots but they're the cheap part of the equation.

It sounds like you're not entirely confident with how you are measuring your 209 powder. I tried the volume method and was in the same boat as you. I bought a Hornady digital scale and weigh each and every charge now so I KNOW that each is consistent. Doing this brings confidence to the shooting bench and ultimately to the field. Paying attention to other small details also will bring confidence in your equipment. Remember to mark your rod so that each load is getting set in the barrel with relative accuracy too and don't be afraid to snug the sabot up on the 209 powder before marking your rod. It all these little things that you have to work thru, but when it clicks it'll be a big click.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

1) Maybe i missed what you were using to swab but with BH209 you dont use water based cleaners. Personally i never swab between shots with BH209. Use a centerfire solvent (hoppes#9)for cleaning BH209 and mixed 50/50 with 91% rubbing alcohol or ISO-HEET if you feel you must swab.

2) That Hornady sabot is rather small loaded OD. Its one of the smallest sabots. I would suggest a MMP HPH-24 or a Harvest Black Crushrib. Both will be around .002-.003 larger than what you are using. You might find BH209 groups better with a slightly tighter fitting sabot and no swabbing.

 

[Timberelk]

I have an Impact that took quite a bit of pellet shooting to get it accurate, like 150 rounds using both 2 and 3 pellet loads with 300 grain bullets. The accuracy seemed to improve with each shot, cleaning between the shots. When I switched to 209 it was very accurate, 4 of five shots touching at 100 yards now. My Accura has the bergerra barrel and has been a good shooter with 209 right from the box and I am getting like accuracy from it with the same identical load of 77 weighed grains of 209 with a 300 grain XTP. It may be that your gun just needs to shot in a bit more.

Bullet diameter can come into play too. All of my shooting is done with .44 cal XTP bullets, but I have some others in the same size that are going to be shot before the season opens just to be sure I can't tighten things up. Each of my three inlines will open groups us as soon as I start pushing .45 cal bullets.

In my guns the sabots used makes a slight difference....about like what your group pictures show. You may need to work thru a few different brands and styles of sabots but they're the cheap part of the equation.

It sounds like you're not entirely confident with how you are measuring your 209 powder. I tried the volume method and was in the same boat as you. I bought a Hornady digital scale and weigh each and every charge now so I KNOW that each is consistent. Doing this brings confidence to the shooting bench and ultimately to the field. Paying attention to other small details also will bring confidence in your equipment. Remember to mark your rod so that each load is getting set in the barrel with relative accuracy too and don't be afraid to snug the sabot up on the 209 powder before marking your rod. It all these little things that you have to work thru, but when it clicks it'll be a big click.

The gun was said to be only shot 11 times before I bought it so now it's up to about 90 shots.

I purchase the Hornady SST sabot/bullet plastic container that comes with enough for 20 shots.. are you saying I need to buy the bullets separate and then buy different sabots? Do I buy 50 cal bullets or 45 cal bullets? What sabots should I try?

I only have about 2 weeks until my hunt that only lasts for 1.5 weeks... I'm considering selling the TC and buying an CVA optima in hopes it's shoots accurately out of the box


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[Timberelk]

1) Maybe i missed what you were using to swab but with BH209 you dont use water based cleaners. Personally i never swab between shots with BH209. Use a centerfire solvent (hoppes#9)for cleaning BH209 and mixed 50/50 with 91% rubbing alcohol or ISO-HEET if you feel you must swab.

2) That Hornady sabot is rather small loaded OD. Its one of the smallest sabots. I would suggest a MMP HPH-24 or a Harvest Black Crushrib. Both will be around .002-.003 larger than what you are using. You might find BH209 groups better with a slightly tighter fitting sabot and no swabbing.

I was using Tradition's pre soaked muzzle loader barrel cleaner pad (they were Orange in color) then I'd use a couple dry patches... but when I was shooting BH I was only cleaning every 6 or 7 shots...


2) the only muzzleloader billets I've been seeing are the packages that come with the bullets and sabots... if I find them separate I buy 50 cal sabots and 50 cal bullets? Or 45 cal bullets?

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[ENCORE50A]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Understanding that we have no clue how proficient a shooter you may or may not be, in the pink circle, 50% of your shots are excellent. In the green, it appears you have something around a 1 1/2" group with just one outside that opened up the group.

Its a new to you rifle. I'd be sure I had a solid bench and a solid rest and continue shooting and you might just tighten up the group with more practice. I'd shoot to tighten up the groups first, then make scope adjustments. As previously stated, give the barrel time to cool between shots.

I am no stellar marksman, but can typically shoot standard center fire rifles right at MOA. My main concern is that I have two separate groups, one clean shot group and one dirty shot group (except for the last two shots which flipped that)

***I forgot to include that my very first two shots of the day hit about 1/2" apart but both were in the green circle***
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Unless I'm mistaken, you're shooting two different kinds of propellant, so that's more than enough to count towards the different groups. As others have noted, you don't need to remove your breech plug for cleaning between shots. If you're using pellets, then just swab the bore between shots. If you're shooting BH, then keep on shooting, but, if you've put 90 rounds through it and some of those were with BH, then clean the flash channel of carbon, using a 1/8" drill bit BY HAND. You'll know when you get to the bottom of the flash channel.
I'll suggest this, many who shoot a CF, might have a little more difficulty with a muzzleloader. Its an entirely different animal (rifle). I'd also suggest you stick with one propellant or the other, then keep practicing. I'm not fond of Konus and also not saying it can't be equipment related. But, going back to the groups, when 50% are excellent and 1.5" for the other, throwing out the fliers, IMO you just need to shoot it more.

 

[Timberelk]

Understanding that we have no clue how proficient a shooter you may or may not be, in the pink circle, 50% of your shots are excellent. In the green, it appears you have something around a 1 1/2" group with just one outside that opened up the group.

Its a new to you rifle. I'd be sure I had a solid bench and a solid rest and continue shooting and you might just tighten up the group with more practice. I'd shoot to tighten up the groups first, then make scope adjustments. As previously stated, give the barrel time to cool between shots.

I am no stellar marksman, but can typically shoot standard center fire rifles right at MOA. My main concern is that I have two separate groups, one clean shot group and one dirty shot group (except for the last two shots which flipped that)

***I forgot to include that my very first two shots of the day hit about 1/2" apart but both were in the green circle***
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Unless I'm mistaken, you're shooting two different kinds of propellant, so that's more than enough to count towards the different groups. As others have noted, you don't need to remove your breech plug for cleaning between shots. If you're using pellets, then just swab the bore between shots. If you're shooting BH, then keep on shooting, but, if you've put 90 rounds through it and some of those were with BH, then clean the flash channel of carbon, using a 1/8" drill bit BY HAND. You'll know when you get to the bottom of the flash channel.
I'll suggest this, many who shoot a CF, might have a little more difficulty with a muzzleloader. Its an entirely different animal (rifle). I'd also suggest you stick with one propellant or the other, then keep practicing. I'm not fond of Konus and also not saying it can't be equipment related. But, going back to the groups, when 50% are excellent and 1.5" for the other, throwing out the fliers, IMO you just need to shoot it more.

Sorry for not clarifying... all shots on the paper target picture that was attached on the first post was with using pydrodex pellets... when I used BH 209 a few weeks ago it was throwing bullets all over the target, no consistence at all


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[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

2) the only muzzleloader billets I've been seeing are the packages that come with the bullets and sabots... if I find them separate I buy 50 cal sabots and 50 cal bullets? Or 45 cal bullets?

50cal x 45cal sabots so the bullets will be between .451-.452. Please refer to the sabot sticky in the inline section for loaded OD sizes. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

You can simply go to a place like Cabelas and buy the Harvester Black Crushrib sabots and use them with your 250gr SST bullets. 50 sabots are around $9. You can certainly use them with whatever 45cal bullets you like instead but using between 250gr-300gr is your best bet. IMO you get the most from BH209 when using a 300gr bullet.

 

[Timberelk]

2) the only muzzleloader billets I've been seeing are the packages that come with the bullets and sabots... if I find them separate I buy 50 cal sabots and 50 cal bullets? Or 45 cal bullets?

50cal x 45cal sabots so the bullets will be between .451-.452. Please refer to the sabot sticky in the inline section for loaded OD sizes. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

You can simply go to a place like Cabelas and buy the Harvester Black Crushrib sabots and use them with your 250gr SST bullets. 50 sabots are around $9. You can certainly use them with whatever 45cal bullets you like instead but using between 250gr-300gr is your best bet. IMO you get the most from BH209 when using a 300gr bullet.

Thank you for the sticky.. looks like the SST are .451 but the hornady XTP are .430 in diameter?



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[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

You can buy XTPs in .452 also. The SST if you measure it should be .452

.452 300gr XTP is a decent cheap bullet. No need to buy the XTP Mags. The Speer 300gr DeepCurl is better but they can be a bear to find sometimes.

Grafs has the Speers in stock atm but the sabots are back ordered.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... ctId/17309
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... uctId/5465

This sabot will work but may be just slightly tighter
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... uctId/5481

 

[Timberelk]

Ok my hunt is in an open area where the shots the the mile deer range from 50 yards to really far (1000+ yards) If I'm trying to shoot out to 250 yards, should I look at a 250 grain? 300 grain? Hornady SST? XTP?

Thanks for all the info


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[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Well before we even discuss 250 yard shots you have other fish to fry and chucking premium priced bullets down range will get expensive really fast. Generally speaking, a 300gr bullet will retain more energy than a lighter bullet of the same caliber. So yes a 300gr is a better choice than a 250gr.

Get it grouping correctly first with a load that carries enough power to say.....200 yards.

 

[Timberelk]

Well before we even discuss 250 yard shots you have other fish to fry and chucking premium priced bullets down range will get expensive really fast. Generally speaking, a 300gr bullet will retain more energy than a lighter bullet of the same caliber. So yes a 300gr is a better choice than a 250gr.

Get it grouping correctly first with a load that carries enough power to say.....200 yards.

Yes it does get very expensive! I've already gone through 80 shots since buying this gun 2 weeks ago and I'm not where close to the 1-2" group at 100 yards that I was hoping for


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[GM54-120]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Premium quality bullets will easily cost over $1 each just for the bullet. Bullets like the Parker Ballistic Extreme are NOT cheap and they are on the lower end of "Premium".

Get some
300gr 452s
Harvester Sabots (i posted)
Use about 110gr by volume of BH209 and a Fed209A, CCI209M or Win209 primer
That load should be fine in terms of FPE to 200 yards or maybe more.

DONT use primers made for MLs such as WinT7 primers. They are too weak for reliable ignition.

 

[Timberelk]

Premium quality bullets will easily cost over $1 each just for the bullet. Bullets like the Parker Ballistic Extreme are NOT cheap and they are on the lower end of "Premium".

Get some
300gr 452s
Harvester Sabots (i posted)
Use about 110gr by volume of BH209 and a Fed209A, CCI209M or Win209 primer
That load should be fine in terms of FPE to 200 yards or maybe more.

DONT use primers made for MLs such as WinT7 primers. They are too weak for reliable ignition.

Thank you for the recommendation! After researching for a few weeks, I did a similar setup but with the Hornady SST 250 grain with the included sabots and 100 grains of BH209 and CCI209M. It didn't shoot well (i shot about 20 times) so then I went to 85 and it was slightly better but still shots within 6" Circle. Then I used the pydrodex pellets and it shrank my groups a lot but have two groups in different location as per pic on first post.

I measured the powder with the black horns powder measure cylinders and tried to replicate them as closely as possible.

Maybe the scopes parraellex is screwed up and I need to grab a Nikon prostaff in hopes that fixes the problem? I will also be sure to look for the harvester sabots


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[Tannhauser]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

After reading through the further posts, I agree with GM54-120's advice.

I would pick one propellant and stay with it. Then I would add a recommendation to change parameters in your set up one at a time. Different sabot, different bullet, different scope, different charge...etc. Change one thing and shoot it 3 to 5 times. Keep notes/targets/pictures of each group.

 

[Tannhauser]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

XTP bullets are available around $17 per 50. You can buy packs of 50 sabots for around $9 per 50. IMO it's a much more cost effective way to go with a muzzleloader. Now, to get the most out of your rig you may need to go to a premium bullet, but IMO that is a fine tuning stage. For basic sighting in and set up, I always shoot bulk packaged Hornady XTP bullets.

 

[Timberelk]

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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[Tannhauser]

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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Without actually having the gun and shooting it ourselves I think the best the forum can do is provide suggestions.

If I have a gun that isn't grouping how I believe it should, what I do is check the simple stuff and then methodically work my way through each possibility to try and rule them out.