Blackhorn 209.....WTH

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I did not state that the modules were $20 each. My third to the last paragraph stated.....

The only two drawbacks to a LMRP breech plug & module ignition system, are the cost of the modules per/20 each; and.......

The next paragraph stated the prices per 20 modules as taken directly off of the Arrowhead Rifles website.

In addition, as far as the primer pockets stretching/enlarging is concerned, I was only paraphrasing information taken from a thread here some months back where the OP, and at least one other member, clearly stated that the primer pockets in their modules had stretched to the point of rendering the modules unsafe to use.
I think this is worth noting...last year around Black Friday, I got an email from Arrowhead about a sale and I got 20 modules for $70 dollars...which counting the 20 I got with each of my breech plugs makes it 60. All I'll ever need. I recommend going on Luke's site and sign up for promotion emails. You could save a lot of $$$.
 
Maybe I missed it... But someone posted about using squib charges here and it was left alone by the mods?! I've never considered squibs or duplex loads to be advisable, safe, nor normal. If you think that you need them, you probably are cutting a safety or common sense corner somewhere and trying to make up for it with another bad idea..

My.. 02 USD
 
Maybe I missed it... But someone posted about using squib charges here and it was left alone by the mods?! I've never considered squibs or duplex loads to be advisable, safe, nor normal. If you think that you need them, you probably are cutting a safety or common sense corner somewhere and trying to make up for it with another bad idea..

My.. 02 USD

Thank you - I agree with your thoughts!!
 
Maybe I missed it... But someone posted about using squib charges here and it was left alone by the mods?! I've never considered squibs or duplex loads to be advisable, safe, nor normal. If you think that you need them, you probably are cutting a safety or common sense corner somewhere and trying to make up for it with another bad idea..

My.. 02 USD

My post #91 addressed the potential for safely using a 10 grain squibb charge of fffg black powder under any of the available black powder substitute propellants in a sidelock, flintlock, muzzleloading rifle.

Except for in a roundabout way referencing the possible total number of 10 grain squibb charges one might realize out of a pound of fffg black powder; I really was not speaking towards percussion rifles at all. Either sidelock, or inline.

With its essentially open breech design, as a result of the need for a touch hole drilled into the side of the barrel to effect ignition of the main powder charge in the barrel from the priming charge in the pan of the lock; the likelihood of an over pressure situation occurring in the breech of a modern flintlock as a result of combining a 10 grain, fffg granulation, squibb black powder charge with any of the substitute powders, to include BH209, is virtually nonexistent.

Is it theoretically possible to blow up a modern steel, properly breeched, flintlock barrel rifled for patched balls? Using a 10gr squibb charge of fffg black powder under any reasonable charge of BH209?

Yes, it absolutely is possible. Is it likely? In my opinion, not very. It would require some very serious stupidity on the shooter's part for such an over pressure situation to cause a flintlock barrel to burst. Or, for the breech plug to fail.

Could a flintlock, fast twist barrel with shallow grooves, such as the .50 caliber Pedersoli Hawken Hunter (1" octagon × 28.375" long × 1:24" twist), be overloaded with a 10 grain fffg black powder squibb charge, a 120 grain by volume BH209 main powder charge, a .54 caliber wool wad, and a 600 grain No Excuses lead conical? Sure it could. Would the above theoretical load result in a dangerous over pressure situation? In my personal opinion having shot flintlock flintlock rifles for the better part of 30 years, I don't think so.

Recoil would be off the charts uncomfortable. The jet of flame escaping to the right of the shooter would be fearsome, both in length (approximately 48"-60" long), and intensity. Anyone caught in the flame jet from such a load coming out of a flintlock rifle's barrel, would suffer at least a 2nd degree, if not 3rd degree burn. To escape with only a 1st degree burn would take some serious luck.

The only way a squibb black powder charge, in conjunction with a black powder substitute main charge, could result in a dangerous over pressure situation, in my opinion, is to double/triple load the barrel with multiple squibb charges, multiple main charges, and multiple projectiles.

Or, to not fully seat a projectile onto the squibb/main charges, resulting in an air gap between the charges and the projectile.

The vast majority, probably 99%, of all flintlocks are rifled to shoot a patched ball.

Most patched ball barrels shoot most accurately with powder charges under 100 grains. Most big game animals are killed at distances under 75 yards.

Anyone desiring to shoot any of the substitute powders in a flintlock rifle due to a shortage of real black powder, and thus requiring the use of a squibb charge of black powder under the substitute powder, should certainly exercise appropriate caution in their load development. The use of a chronograph while developing such a load, would be a wise move.

If the current situation with Goex results is a black powder shortage, and I am faced with not shooting my flintlocks at all, or intelligently developing duplex loads using a squibb charge of black powder under the main charge of the substitute powder, then that's exactly what I intend to do.

I feel comfortable knowing that someone like Herb at the American Longrifles Forum has already paved the way with some extensive research, and chronograph work, using his handmade. Leman, .58 caliber, flintlock short rifle with its 24" long barrel.
 
Without the need for a multi paragraph novel since it a simple question....

Can you post a link with the pressure trace or a trace of BH209 being used in a sidelock/flintlock with real black as the "primer"? You focus entirely on the strength of the barrel when there is more to consider.
 
Without the need for a multi paragraph novel since it a simple question....

Can you post a link with the pressure trace or a trace of BH209 being used in a sidelock/flintlock with real black as the "primer"? You focus entirely on the strength of the barrel when there is more to consider.
I don't know about blackhorn 209 but on the back of 777 bottles hodgdon it even gives instructions on how to use their product in flintlocks... and it involves using 10gns real black powder first, then removing 10gns from your desired load of 777 on top. I don't think the lawyers at such a large company would allow those directions on the back of the bottle if it wasn't safe..... again, this in not in reference to BH209....I have know idea about using it in such a manner
 
Well you boys otta' be proud of yourselves. I found and just installed a an honest to goodness CVA Blackhorn 209 breechplug. Was not easy to find, like everything else these days. I'll be trying to bring my velosity up to the desired 2,100 fps in my Accura tomorrow. Thank all of you for the steer.
 
Without the need for a multi paragraph novel since it a simple question....

Can you post a link with the pressure trace or a trace of BH209 being used in a sidelock/flintlock with real black as the "primer"? You focus entirely on the strength of the barrel when there is more to consider.
By the way, what is a pressure trace? Never heard of that before. Curious what exactly that is. Is it like a pressure curve or something for loads/cartridges?
 
I don't know about blackhorn 209 but on the back of 777 bottles hodgdon it even gives instructions on how to use their product in flintlocks... and it involves using 10gns real black powder first, then removing 10gns from your desired load of 777 on top. I don't think the lawyers at such a large company would allow those directions on the back of the bottle if it wasn't safe..... again, this in not in reference to BH209....I have know idea about using it in such a manner
I had never noticed that so I had to look at a triple 7 jug. On both the 2f and 3f containers it is as you say. Only difference is on mine it says use 5 grains. Learn something every day.
 
I had never noticed that so I had to look at a triple 7 jug. On both the 2f and 3f containers it is as you say. Only difference is on mine it says use 5 grains. Learn something every day.
It may have said 5 on mine as well. I was just going off what I remembered and thought it said 10
 
By the way, what is a pressure trace? Never heard of that before. Curious what exactly that is. Is it like a pressure curve or something for loads/cartridges?
Thats exactly what it does and when combined with chrono data we get a much better idea of what is going on. Its not just the peak its also the pressure curve. Dougs board had literally hundreds of smokeless ML traces and some using BH209. Unfortunately the guy who did the vast majority of those trace passed away and none of them are a BH209 duplex. We have seen what can happen in plunger guns shooting BH209. Even if the peak pressure is fine there is more to the story than just barrel strength. Thats obvious if a similar load of Triple7 in the same plunger gun does not create the issues that BH209 can create.

Touch/nipple hole erosion and hammers recocking just to name a couple.
 
By the way, what is a pressure trace? Never heard of that before. Curious what exactly that is. Is it like a pressure curve or something for loads/cartridges?

This might be a good example of a Pressure Curve Chart.

BpPressures.jpg
 
Here is one with the exact load data and all relevant info like temp ect. Like i said even though the peak is very reasonable there is more to it than just peak pressure. This load using a sabot in a 50cal plunger gun WILL recock a Knight hammer. Ive seen it happen. Yet the same amount of Triple7 by volume did not. Both loads will give you close to the same FPS. BH209 will be a little faster.
NmfDSc5.jpg
 
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It’s panic buying and hoarding that makes so the rest of us can’t find it.

Sorry I have a smoking problem and I can’t stop.
I eat,sleep,work and day dream about smoking my poles and no one can help me but that’s ok because I don’t want help with my smoking problem because I love it.
😃
 
Here is one with the exact load data and all relevant info like temp ect. Like i said even though the peak is very reasonable there is more to it than just peak pressure. This load using a sabot in a 50cal plunger gun WILL recock a Knight hammer. Ive seen it happen. Yet the same amount of Triple7 by volume did not. Both loads will give you close to the same FPS. BH209 will be a little faster.
NmfDSc5.jpg
It's a shame something couldn't be done to seal up that breech better on such fine rifles as those Knights...imagine if a Knight could be made to shoot BH209 without the current issues...that would really be something! I really admire those rifles....
 
It's a shame something couldn't be done to seal up that breech better on such fine rifles as those Knights...imagine if a Knight could be made to shoot BH209 without the current issues...that would really be something! I really admire those rifles....

It really is pretty darn simple to create zero headspace on Knight so they are clean. The real problem for Knight is they have no ideal what 209 primer you might be using. All 209 primers are not created equal. Knight specs will allow you to use any American primers and most Euro primers. With that comes the problem. A factory rifle will not create zero headspace with all primers.

I choose to shoot Winchester W209 primers as the tend to be the longest primer on the market, and yet in the same box primers their length can very to some degree.

You can see in this picture how clean used primers can be, which leads directly to a clean breech area.

45-FT-primer-with-015-shim.jpg
 
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I think he is refering to Knight plunger rifles and BH209. Even Western only recommends a closed/sealed breech system. As fas as the rest of the Knights its pretty simple to achieve a clean, totally safe and ultra dependable BH209 shooter. Out of 6 of mine only 1 needed some tinkering. All the rest sealed up fine with a Win209 and a Lehigh plug.
 

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