CVA Paramount Update

[Busta]

https://www.muzzleloaders.com/custom-shop/

Ring ring ring,
Hello, i would like a 500 with the bare primer setup

Wow that was easy.

Hello, that don't fix the headspace issue now does it?

What will that cost you, another $200+ on top of the $2000+?


No answer!

 

[Busta]

If they licensed the Variflame from PRB, they can make their own design. If they signed a contract to use "the Variflame" supplied from PRB, not so much.

Maybe it was only a year or two deal, to see how it did in the market? Time will tell the story.

 

[GM54-120]

Hello, that don't fix the headspace issue now does it?

What will that cost you, another $200+ on top of the $2000+?


No answer!

Cost me just $24.45 delivered from Lehigh. My 45 1-20 barrel with the bare primer bolt body and Lehigh plug seals fine. I posted pics in the other thread. No shims, no nothing added to it.

 

[Busta]

Cost me just $24.45 delivered from Lehigh. My 45 1-20 barrel with the bare primer bolt body and Lehigh plug seals fine. I posted pics in the other thread. No shims, no nothing added to it.

You posted a link to the Knight Custom shop. What does that cost you over the $2000+ cost of the rifle with RFPJ bolt and breech plug, to add the bare primer bolt and breech plug?


One rifle does not a sample size make. You got lucky.

 

[GregK]

Or Knight, Remington, T/C, and Traditions with their rifles?

I don't care for the Variflame either, but do you honestly think the Red Full Plastic Jacket is a better system? That is the only way the $2000+ Knight 500 comes. You have no choice from the Factory.

CVA offers a bare 209 primer option as well, just like all the other manufacturers except Remington. Just a matter of screwing in a $20 breech plug.

I just find it odd that all the other manufacturers always get a pass around here. One even uses an expensive, leaky, plastic, one-and-done, proprietary part, and never a peep. They have been fleecing their customers for 20+ years with that orange and red garbage. The platform is also 20+ years old, yet they haven't done anything to address the headspace issue on any of the models.

This rifle has only been out for 6 months, and they at least tried to address the headspace issue with the bolt. I don't think we will have to give them another 20+ years to improve on the design? At least they acknowledge that headspace exists and is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Let's call a spade a spade, and hope their contract with PRB is a short one. They'll learn soon enough, once more reports on the ASG Gen II come in after this first hunting season. Hopefully we won't have to wait for over 20 years for them to still not figure it out?

I only addressed the Paramount because this is a Paramount thread.
I’ve had several Knight bolt guns & NONE of them sealed properly. I hate the disc. My opinion is that’s Knights “no cure” for a tolerance problem that could be addressed in machining.
Knight says most guys don’t shoot their gun enough for leakage & stuck primers to matter. One of my Mountaineers was stuck shut after one shot.
The cure was sending it to Jeff yo have a proper breech plug made....problem solved.

But it shouldn’t have to be sent to anyone.

By the time they built the Paramount there were many forums and leakage was a well known problem.
CVA built a totally new gun, then went to Canada to get an ignition system that doesn’t seal. Why didn’t they just do it right from the start? Instead of asking “what about all these other leakers” We could be saying, Look at that....they did it right.

Greg

 

[MrTom]

Question on the variflame adapters. I see a "kit" with the adapters and priming tools available locally. Are these a direct replacement for the 209 primer in standard Accura and Optima breech plugs or are they just for the Paramount rifle's breech plug?

 

[Busta]

I only addressed the Paramount because this is a Paramount thread.
I’ve had several Knight bolt guns & NONE of them sealed properly. I hate the disc. My opinion is that’s Knights “no cure” for a tolerance problem that could be addressed in machining.
Knight says most guys don’t shoot their gun enough for leakage & stuck primers to matter. One of my Mountaineers was stuck shut after one shot.
The cure was sending it to Jeff yo have a proper breech plug made....problem solved.

But it shouldn’t have to be sent to anyone.

By the time they built the Paramount there were many forums and leakage was a well known problem.
CVA built a totally new gun, then went to Canada to get an ignition system that doesn’t seal. Why didn’t they just do it right from the start? Instead of asking “what about all these other leakers” We could be saying, Look at that....they did it right.

Greg

Great post!

You're right, I feel the same way, but it looks as if they'll have to live with their decision, at least for a while. Hopefully not 20+ years.

What kills me most, is we can hold machining tolerances of +/- 0.00005"on 20, 30, 40 year old manually adjusted machines, but some of the muzzleloading manufacturers can't even get headspace tolerances better than +/- 0.020" with CNC?

"You live by the sword, you die by the sword!"

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Great post!

You're right, I feel the same way, but it looks as if they'll have to live with their decision, at least for a while. Hopefully not 20+ years.

What kills me most, is we can hold machining tolerances of +/- 0.00005"on 20, 30, 40 year old manually adjusted machines, but some of the muzzleloading manufacturers can't even get headspace tolerances better than +/- 0.020" with CNC?

"You live by the sword, you die by the sword!"

Does holding the tolerances that close translate into much higher price for us end users? Seems like it could drastically raise manufacturing costs. IDK, im just asking.

 

[Busta]

Does holding the tolerances that close translate into much higher price for us end users? Seems like it could drastically raise manufacturing costs. IDK, im just asking.

It don't have to be anywhere near my first example, but they don't care if you have blowback. They just want to make sure the firing pin strikes the primer, and the charge goes bang.

This could all be remedied by making adjustable headspace breech plugs that the end user could tweak for the primer of their choice.

I've had one since 2008 that you can adjust. Bestill has an excellent one for the Knight bolt rifles. The only problem is if installed as designed it would render your Knight warranty void of you were ever to have a return issue, since the sleeve is designed to be red Loctited in place.

There are several ways that it could be done. The problem is these companies are consulting with the wrong people. They would be much further ahead of the game by consulting with people like Jeff (Bestill), Luke (ASG), Jeff Hankins (Hanks Custom Gun Parts), and other custom rifle builders.

Like I've said before, one or two days reading on this site would give them all the direction they would need. It's not rocket science!

Some are already charging you for the drastically increased manufacturing costs. Problem is, they ain't delivering the goods! They need Statistical Process Control and Statistical Problem Solving in their repertoire. But only if they care to get better.

Sounds like some are happy, right where they are at!

 

[45-70]

I have shot with several Knight Staffers don't think it voids the warranty , I have never heard them say so and they shoot Bestill plugs

 

[45-70]

Hello, that don't fix the headspace issue now does it?

What will that cost you, another $200+ on top of the $2000+?


No answer!

Knight must have really pissed you off

 

[GregK]

Does holding the tolerances that close translate into much higher price for us end users? Seems like it could drastically raise manufacturing costs. IDK, im just asking.

I would say only if it can’t be programmed thru a computer. If there’s hand fitting needed then yes the price could & should go up. However you’d have the satisfaction of knowing that your gun was given any special attention it needed to work perfectly.
That’s not just Knight.....it applies to everyone

Greg

 

[Brad7348]

Question on the variflame adapters. I see a "kit" with the adapters and priming tools available locally. Are these a direct replacement for the 209 primer in standard Accura and Optima breech plugs or are they just for the Paramount rifle's breech plug?

Sorry Mr Tom, your question was overlooked. The Variflame adapters are quite a bit larger than a 209 primer so you would need a different breach plug to make them work with the Accura or Optima. The question we would all have back is why would you want to spend money to change to a system that also leaks. The paramount crowd are all trying to get away from Variflames. The Variflame housing does not flex, crush, bulge etc so it cant be sealed well. The only way to make it work well is to fiddle with little rubber O-rings under the variflame adapters which requires more work on the breachplug to make the space for them, o-ring replacement every X number of shots... The bare 209 primer actually seals better than the variflame and if you are a bit loose, you can try different manufacturers to find a 209 that is just a hair longer so it seals better. If you are set on changing, by the time you buy a new breach plug, new variflame adapters etc, you could have just spent a few extra bucks and you would have a really nice, no leak, large rifle primer set up from Luke. https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/product/cva_qrbp/ Give luke a call. He can verify if this plug works for your rifles, and tell you the process to ensure proper headspace for a tight seal. For the bolt action folks, he sends gauges out with dummy plugs so he can get headspace measurements, then he send a custom modified plug for a perfect fit. Not sure how he handles headspace for the break actions. I think they may be a drop in fit.

 

[Busta]

I would say only if it can’t be programmed thru a computer. If there’s hand fitting needed then yes the price could & should go up. However you’d have the satisfaction of knowing that your gun was given any special attention it needed to work perfectly.
That’s not just Knight.....it applies to everyone

Greg

Unfortunately, that is not how it works anymore. My original MK-85 was built by gunsmiths and craftsmen. Deep rich bluing and nice walnut, all fitted together for a great fit and finish with tight tolerances like a custom rifle.

Now, they are produced and assembled by general laborers with wide tolerances, but they still want a premium for them.

 

[antman]

I'm using the 209 plug and 209 primers. The variflame is out. Way better and just as accurate. Plus simply throw away when done. It's a no brainer.

 

[Ninering62]

I finally got to chrono the Paramount.
280 Gr ELR
140grV Blackhorn 209

1st shot was with an older lot of powder that some say dont meter properly 2292FPS

Next 10 shots were with a new lot of powder

7 of them were between 2330-2338FPS

1-2310
1-2322
1-2348

These numbers are higher than CVA'S advertised velocities.
Consistency in velocity was pretty impressive. Not sure what caused the deviation in 3 of the shots.
Accuracy was exceptional at 100 yards.

Are these velocities on par with others who are shooting the Paramount?

Thanks for getting that data & being kind enough to share it with the class.

 

[Ninering62]

Or Knight, Remington, T/C, and Traditions with their rifles?

I don't care for the Variflame either, but do you honestly think the Red Full Plastic Jacket is a better system? That is the only way the $2000+ Knight 500 comes. You have no choice from the Factory.

CVA offers a bare 209 primer option as well, just like all the other manufacturers except Remington. Just a matter of screwing in a $20 breech plug.

I just find it odd that all the other manufacturers always get a pass around here. One even uses an expensive, leaky, plastic, one-and-done, proprietary part, and never a peep. They have been fleecing their customers for 20+ years with that orange and red garbage. The platform is also 20+ years old, yet they haven't done anything to address the headspace issue on any of the models.

This rifle has only been out for 6 months, and they at least tried to address the headspace issue with the bolt. I don't think we will have to give them another 20+ years to improve on the design? At least they acknowledge that headspace exists and is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Let's call a spade a spade, and hope their contract with PRB is a short one. They'll learn soon enough, once more reports on the ASG Gen II come in after this first hunting season. Hopefully we won't have to wait for over 20 years for them to still not figure it out?

A-freakin-men! TY TY TY Well said & much deserved to be said with truth & faiarness. You did great with all of it.

 

[ShawnT]

From my chats with my cousin (He has a shop with several CNC's) tolerances have to be watched very close with CNC as things change as the machine and tooling warm up. It requires close attention and making small adjustments. They are not exactly set it, or load it up, and forget it. I have watched him Fret over a job start up as it runs and keeps tweaking till it runs right. He is a Precision Freak. I once watched him checking the holes in a part with a set of pin gauges. Turned out that pin gauge set was graduated by .0001" per pin (ten thousands)! It can be done at least much closer than we see but that much attention to detail costs $$. Keeping the machines and tooling to those tolerances is not cheap either.

 

[ShawnT]

Question on the variflame adapters. I see a "kit" with the adapters and priming tools available locally. Are these a direct replacement for the 209 primer in standard Accura and Optima breech plugs or are they just for the Paramount rifle's breech plug?

Tom,

If I recall right Ron said he had to open the primer pocket Diameter just a bit to get them to fit.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Question on the variflame adapters. I see a "kit" with the adapters and priming tools available locally. Are these a direct replacement for the 209 primer in standard Accura and Optima breech plugs or are they just for the Paramount rifle's breech plug?

What can/must be done so for to use the adapters in the Accura, and Optima is to enlarge the primer socket to 9/32". A 9/32" end mill works to do this job. The QRBP on the right uses the adaptes.

The 22 Hornet shell holder fits the adapters. One can use a standard reloading press to prime, and deprime the adapters.