CVA's New 2019 .45 Caliber Rifling Twist Rate Revealed!

[sabotloader]

You should add T/C, Tradtions and MDM along with Knight. They all had 45cal 1-20 inlines with 209 ignition and "SUPER 45" load data in one form or another.

Only if they knew how to load them to shoot accurately.
Knight only did so after attending Friendship - then they reintroduce them in 2015.

Any chance you can dig up the info from the 2001 and 2002 Manufacturers matches? Knight won both those years shooting the Precision Rifle QT bullets. I just dont have any info on what they were shooting them in. Im assuming it was a 1-20 Super DISC and that is what Gordy thought they shot that year also.

PR has several bullets that should be good hunting choices in the new CVA fast twists too.

Scott, I do not know for sure but I think they were shooting the heavy barrel Knight with a 1-18 twist - looked just like the Knight 500 of today and it is a 1-18 twist also.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I’m pretty sure they were shooting 1:18 twists in the Knights

 

[GM54-120]

Not in 2001 and 2002 as far as i know. Extremes were not even out yet. The first mention of the 1-18 was in the 2006 catalog (2005 match) although it is possible Knight used some in house only customs earlier.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Not in 2001 and 2002 as far as i know. Extremes were not even out yet. The first mention of the 1-18 was in the 2006 catalog (2005 match) although it is possible Knight used some in house only customs earlier.

2005

 

[52Bore]

Any chance you can dig up the info from the 2001 and 2002 Manufacturers matches? Knight won both those years shooting the Precision Rifle QT bullets. I just dont have any info on what they were shooting them in. Im assuming it was a 1-20 Super DISC and that is what Gordy thought they shot that year also.
.

I do not. I do know with talking/shooting with Gordy (2013-2016) they did not have them shooting like what is going on nowadays. Those matches also had offhand and stopped at 200.
There was an in-line LR Match (blue swingers) during the mfg matche times on the LRML silhouette line, out to 350-400 I believe. I only recall Blake Hamilton tying to shoot those with his in-line in those days. He probably has some good stories.

I should add, when I bought an older 45 1:18 from Knight member KW - he gave me some bullets that he shot in the mfg match 300-350gr conicals. I told him he wasn’t doing the gun justice.. all in good humor.

 

[long shot]

They never shot past 200 yds. in manufactures matches. The blue swingers was last leg of the Agg. every thing before was offhand, targets, that is. Blue Swingers were shot prone and they hand people as spotters . Any Manufactured Muzzle loader was legal in the Match, they competed against one another. Side locks , and Inline. I have one of the later match rifles with bull barrel in 1-18 , just like encore50 picture. The s# is 1295. The man that owned it is in the catalog along with rest of the Team. A fellow by name of Branch Meanly , which at one time, owned Green Mountain Barrels , was behind the 18 twist. He was a bench slug gun shooter and most of them shoot patched bullets. The bullet at that time was a light conical about 400 or so grains in the Inlines they used for Manufactures Match. Reason was low recoil for Off hand. light charges. That is about all I know. There was two trophy one for best over all shooter and one for best team. It was big bucks to enter for the sponsor

 

[Busta]

Honestly i think a 1-22 twist would fit the majority of hunters . Most average hunters shoot 250 to 300 grain max bullets . Maybe even 200 to 250 grain bullets. I am talking about the mass majority of hunters . 1-22 should handle that weight of bullets fairly well.

Personally if i was to build a long range rifle i would want a little faster twist .

I agree Doug.
I have and have owned a few ML built in the mid-1800’s with twist from 1:18 to 1:24 in 45 cal. Even my 1:24 won many LR Silhouette matches at Friendship (to 500 yds) and won at Oak Ridge to 600yds. But, I finally gave up after years of shooting it at 1000 - I tried everything.
This CVA will do fine.
Didn’t think they’d copy Knight 1:20 (same as Whitworth in 1850’s).

You mean like Knight copied White? White did it 10 years before the rest of the "Super .45's" in the Super 90 and Super 91 .451 caliber. Doc had it right from the get-go. The others failed miserably, because they were trying to shoot saboted 155 &180 grain .40 caliber XTP's at inflated speeds.

The 1:22 will do just fine, you'll both see soon enough.

 

[52Bore]

That’s interesting - Doug and I both agree it will do fine.
Doc copied the makers of the mid-1800’s, I believe I read where he owned a few originals of the period - none of this is new to anyone who knows ML shooting history.

 

[GM54-120]

Yeah the old SUPER 45 stuff was based around 3 pellet loads and a 155gr bullet for several companies. The claim was it was roughly equal to a 7mm-08 at the muzzle. Well you might get 2500fps but the results were more of a shotgun pattern than a group. The twist certainly isnt the problem because ive seen my Pacnor 1-22 shoot awesome groups with modern sabots at well over 2700fps.

Its a bit more challenging with BH209 but ive hit close to 2500fps without crazy high loads. They were over recommended max but completely safe in my Pacnor 45 416R barrel. 150gr by volume should break 2500fps with a 200gr sabot load. Really though you are better off going to one of the new heavier 40cals like the Fury 250 and stay closer to Westerns load data. 2100-2200fps should be possible with the 250 and close to current max recommended.

Lets see
.998 bullet length...i think that is correct for the 40-250
2150fps....should be no problem and plenty safe
1-22 twist
JBM says......Stability: 1.968 which is more than enough
Kwk says....1-26 is all that is needed.

What about the 225gr Accumax?
1.27" long
2200fps should be no problem

JMB says...Stability: 0.915 So that probably aint gunna happen unless the aluminum tip length is killing the numbers.
Kwk says you need at least a 1-21

Section density of a 250gr 40cal is sweet. .223 which is equal to a 50cal weighing 390gr or a 45 weighing about 318grs. Penetration should be excellent and the Fury is bonded. Sure you can gain more with sabotless $2+ a pop bullets and a sizing die but at $44/50 these have some stellar potential for a hunter.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Rick has it figured out . They all are pretty much coppying 1800 technology. Difference between now and the early 2000s or for that matter 1800s is bullets . You can spin the heck out of a good bullet even if its light . Cant hardly over stabilize a bullet .A fast twist barrel will shoot heavy or light sabotless with good bullets.

Only way to get really long range ( beyond 500 yards)with smokers is a heavy bullet and a fast twist gun . Need speed or weight . Only stating the obvious .

 

[long shot]

:yeah:

That’s interesting - Doug and I both agree it will do fine.
Doc copied the makers of the mid-1800’s, I believe I read where he owned a few originals of the period - none of this is new to anyone who knows ML shooting history.

 

[long shot]

:yeah:

Rick has it figured out . They all are pretty much coppying 1800 technology. Difference between now and the early 2000s or for that matter 1800s is bullets . You can spin the heck out of a good bullet even if its light . Cant hardly over stabilize a bullet .A fast twist barrel will shoot heavy or light sabotless with good bullets.

Only way to get really long range ( beyond 500 yards)with smokers is a heavy bullet and a fast twist gun . Need speed or weight . Only stating the obvious .

 

[Busta]

That’s interesting - Doug and I both agree it will do fine.
Doc copied the makers of the mid-1800’s, I believe I read where he owned a few originals of the period - none of this is new to anyone who knows ML shooting history.

Rick has it figured out . They all are pretty much coppying 1800 technology. Difference between now and the early 2000s or for that matter 1800s is bullets . You can spin the heck out of a good bullet even if its light . Cant hardly over stabilize a bullet .A fast twist barrel will shoot heavy or light sabotless with good bullets.

Only way to get really long range ( beyond 500 yards)with smokers is a heavy bullet and a fast twist gun . Need speed or weight . Only stating the obvious .

:yeah:

That’s interesting - Doug and I both agree it will do fine.
Doc copied the makers of the mid-1800’s, I believe I read where he owned a few originals of the period - none of this is new to anyone who knows ML shooting history.

:yeah:

Rick has it figured out . They all are pretty much coppying 1800 technology. Difference between now and the early 2000s or for that matter 1800s is bullets . You can spin the heck out of a good bullet even if its light . Cant hardly over stabilize a bullet .A fast twist barrel will shoot heavy or light sabotless with good bullets.

Only way to get really long range ( beyond 500 yards)with smokers is a heavy bullet and a fast twist gun . Need speed or weight . Only stating the obvious .

You guys sure do a lot of assuming, and you know what they say about that.

This is an inline forum to discuss inline rifles. Doc White did the 1:20 twist first in the modern era. Knight and the rest came 10 years later.

You said:
......"Didn’t think they’d copy Knight 1:20 (same as Whitworth in 1850’s)."

Anyone that knows anything about modern muzzleloading and muzzleloading history knows who copied who. Doc always gave Whitworth his due!

Doc also started and owned Green River Rifle Works back in 1970. A little light reading in modern history.

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/green-river-rifleworks/


The White Sporting Rifle.

"DOC-built 451 caliber English Sporting rifle with super fancy walnut halfstock, really an elegant piece of wood. You can see that the breech is a Manton with Drip Bar over the traditional flat spring lock. There is a pistol grip and Alexander Henry forearm. The lock is a Henry design too. The Kelly barrel is tapered octagon 30 inches long in 451 caliber with 1-20 twist and shallow 0.035 thou deep grooves,meant for long lubricated White (or Whitworth) type elongated lubricated bullets. These guns are terrific hunting rifles and are capable of 1000 yard target shooting. All furniture is iron, the buttplate is checkered wood, an English whim of the 1860’s. There is an under-rib with two ferrules. The barrel is browned, the other iron furniture blued and the stock varnished English style. Sights are a Globe front and English style adjustable ladder rear- looks much like the adjustable ladder rear Springfield sight that was so popular from the 1850’s on. (Springfield copied it from the original English Sporting-Target rifle sights)."

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/sporting-rifle/


White and WHITworth.

"White Muzzleloading System

I had long admired Whitworth’s contribution to the shooting sports. He was not only acknowledged as a genius in his own time but was also a supremely successful businessman. His systemization of machine tooling still affects modern tool making and use. He used a thoroughly modern scientific method of discovery and development. This systemization of development resulted in his being chosen by the British military to further develop the Enfield percussion Minie ball rifle of 1853. The final result was the fabulously accurate and famous ‘small bore’ .451 caliber hexagonal bored sporting-target rifle using a 520 grain slip-fit bullet. The rifle proved to be deficient for military use as the bore dirtied too fast, but it promoted a rage of long range shooting. Later the system was improved by Rigby and Medford, using rifling that looked very modern, same twist but shallow grooves and bullets of round cross section in both lubricated and paper patched form. I longed to own one.

I also came to love double barreled rifles. In 1964, while interning at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City, Ii acquired a John Hayton built British percussion double. It had a nice stock, functional locks and triggers but the original 52 caliber 2-grooved barrels made to shoot a winged bullet were a mess. The rib was loose and the bores pitted.. I decided to rebarrel it, something i had never tried before and decided to use a pair of Douglas .458 barrels with 1-20 twist. I had a friend turn them to original shape on his lathe and install the original breeching. I cleaned up the original rib and barrel furniture and eventually reinstalled them. I bought a lyman mold for the .458 caliber 475 grain bullet designed for the 45-110, but found that forcing the full sized bullet down the barrel was impossible, even with the softest lead. It was then that it occurred to me that the hexagonal whitworth bullet was slip fit and that later whitworth bullets were round in cross section, designed to expand into the hexagonal bore. This prompted me to size the 475 grain bullet down, eventually, to 451, which i found loaded easily and shot superbly well.

Over the next 2 years, including a stint with the US Army in Alaska, I regulated the barrels so that they shot into a cup sized group at 100 yards. With 75 grains of Dupont fffg black powder, the double shot just like a 45-70, a real game killer. I used the rifle for years after that before sorrowfully trading it off, knowing I could always build another.

That rifle was the basis of the White Muzzleloading System. When later I designed the bolt action that eventually morphed into the Super-90, then Super -91 and Super-91-ll, the M98 Elite hunter and finally the Thunderbolt, it was natural to use barrels adapted for the long, heavy, high BC bullet technology that Whitworth pioneered. I had the advantage of modern steels, finely crafted button rifled barrels with precise tolerances, available from multiple sources in standard calibers. It should be obvious that the DOC-designed .451 bore is merely a modern .458 barrel with 1-20 twist and .035″ grooves. Likewise the White .410, which is a modern .416 barrel with 1-16 twist and .035 grooves. The .504 is a modern .512 barrel with 1-24 twist and .004 grooves."

The bullets were easy, too. I adapted the design of that first 45-110 475 grain multi-channelured, lubricated bullet to each caliber, with final lubricated diameter .001 smaller than the nominal caliber so it would slip-fit through powder residues from the previous shot yet still be accurate. MOA groups were not uncommon with the best energy and down range performance in the business. Later, when sabots became popular, I designed the White channelured , lubricated sabot with comparatively heavy, high BC lead hollow point bullet that White Rifles later named the PowerStar. This combination’s sabot was .001 oversize, which made it slightly harder to load than the slip-fit all lead bullets, but which held the bullet in the sabot while in the bore. It also proved to be a devastating killer on game up to elk with MOA groups becoming the norm.

The cover of the first edition of my book, “The White Muzzleloading System”, which was an attempt to sell the long, heavy bullet, slip-fit system that I developed, based on Whitworth’s earlier work. It did not sell well. One reader said that he needed a PhD to read it. Too many sophisticated arguments, maybe. You can read it for free on this website now. GoTo ‘DOC’s Books and Articles, then click on “the White Muzzleloading System” to read."

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/docs-designs-inventions/


Any questions?


Now back to the New 2019 CVA .45 Caliber 1:22 twist Paramount "Game Changer"!

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Wow i apologize

 

[long shot]

What can I say , Whitworth didn't have nothing on Doc!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I won't change my mind . No one didn't say the twist wouldn't work.

 

[long shot]

What can I say , Whitworth didn't have nothing on Doc!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I won't change my mind . No one didn't say the twist wouldn't work.

 

[long shot]

What can I say , Whitworth didn't have nothing on Doc!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I won't change my mind . No one didn't say the twist wouldn't work.

Sorry do have a question, how many years was Doc's rifles used?

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Honestly i think a 1-22 twist would fit the majority of hunters . Most average hunters shoot 250 to 300 grain max bullets . Maybe even 200 to 250 grain bullets. I am talking about the mass majority of hunters . 1-22 should handle that weight of bullets fairly well.

Personally if i was to build a long range rifle i would want a little faster twist .

I thought i was complimenting CVAs decision on a 1-22 twist ? I would think that twist should work very well with a wide range of bullets ? In no way did i mean to bash White or any one else for that matter.

 

[long shot]

What can I say , Whitworth didn't have nothing on Doc!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I won't change my mind . No one didn't say the twist wouldn't work.

Sorry do have a question, how many years was Doc's rifles used?

in the Manufactures Matches

 

[GM54-120]

Yeah, im rather thrilled they used a 1-22