pedersoli rifles

[X-ring]

I've been out twice with the Gibbs and one of my T/C Renegades at 2 different ranges.

I started at 60 yrds to get my horizontal windage. The 2 days I've been to the range have been windy. I'll have to get over that. There are no perfect days here in PA.

I have the rifle on paper at 100yds, but not tight. I used PP & Greased with 60 gr by vol. of Swiss 3F, 2F & 1.5F. (Out of respect, I used bullets someone sent me. I wanted his bullets to be the first fired out of my rifle). I wanted to see how the rifle reacted to the different powders. Also, this is the first time I can remember using Swiss. I previously used Goex in my Mississippi rifle and Pyrodex in all of my other rifles.

My starting point to find a load is 60gr and I will work it up from there. Some on this forum told me the loads they use and the loads vary. Also. I found shooters use all 3 grain types. I will probably stick with 1.5Fg.

I'm also finding, it's a pain to clean. I probably wouldn't have thought that way, but now, I'm aware of the patent breech and I'm trying my best to keep it clean.

Please understand, this is the first time I shot a real Long Range muzzleloading rifle and I want to get it right.

Since I am now working on a load, I would like some advice on how to do it. I have never done this with such a precision rifle. I have the Mortimer and it seemed easy. It shoots PRBs with a wide load range and that was with Pyrodex. (I have to admit, I wasn't aware of the patent breech on the Pedersoli rifles, so ignorance was bliss).

If you are going to work on a long range load, I think you need to use more powder. On my Gibbs I started with 80, 85, 90, 95, lastly 100 gr. of 1 1/2 Swiss. FF Swiss may work for you but it didn't for me. Above 95 gr. accuracy started to go south. If you try FF and FFF be prepared for more recoil..........maybe more than you want to tolerate for more than a few shots. I'm sure 45-70 will chime in with his L.R. Gibbs load. I used a 540 gr. PP and a 530 gr. .451 Postell both cast at 24:1. The greaser is lubed with alox. You can try with a wad or not. Surprisingly, both of my bullets shot best without an O.P. wad. Make sure your front and rear sights are "zeroed". Learning to manage the patent breech is key. Otherwise it's not an issue. You will have to experiment with your between-shot cleaning routine. Fire, clean to the breech, snap a cap, load, fire. Or fire, snap a cap, load, clean to the seated bullet, fire. I'm in Michigan so I know it isn't easy to develope a load in the winter but you can get some of the basic stuff done at 100 yds. when the weather permits [and your fingers don't freeze off.] 5 shot groups at 100 yds will tell you what does and doesn't work. X

 

[451whitworth]

Surprisingly, both of my bullets shot best without an O.P. wad.

I've experienced this many times over the years with various Rigby, Whitworth, and Volunteer repros despite what others have said that a wad ALWAYS results in better groups

 

[45-70]

I've experienced this many times over the years with various Rigby, Whitworth, and Volunteer repros despite what others have said that a wad ALWAYS results in better groups

wad is only to keep base of bullet from gas cutting which in turn can lead the barrel

 

[45-70]

If you are going to work on a long range load, I think you need to use more powder. On my Gibbs I started with 80, 85, 90, 95, lastly 100 gr. of 1 1/2 Swiss. FF Swiss may work for you but it didn't for me. Above 95 gr. accuracy started to go south. If you try FF and FFF be prepared for more recoil..........maybe more than you want to tolerate for more than a few shots. I'm sure 45-70 will chime in with his L.R. Gibbs load. I used a 540 gr. PP and a 530 gr. .451 Postell both cast at 24:1. The greaser is lubed with alox. You can try with a wad or not. Surprisingly, both of my bullets shot best without an O.P. wad. Make sure your front and rear sights are "zeroed". Learning to manage the patent breech is key. Otherwise it's not an issue. You will have to experiment with your between-shot cleaning routine. Fire, clean to the breech, snap a cap, load, fire. Or fire, snap a cap, load, clean to the seated bullet, fire. I'm in Michigan so I know it isn't easy to develope a load in the winter but you can get some of the basic stuff done at 100 yds. when the weather permits [and your fingers don't freeze off.] 5 shot groups at 100 yds will tell you what does and doesn't work. X

I used PP bullets . A 500 grainer at 500 in the beginning , .442 with 2 wraps of 9# onion skin , cup based , swiss 3fff , 78 grains. Eventually shot a 530 PP with 94 grains of 2ff, #two wraps of 9# onion skin paper. I used a Baldwin Front sight and rear , no Lee Shaver. MVA is also a good one. Seth cole makes a 8# paper which some use now instead of the 9. It allows for slightly larger diameter PP bullet. If rifle wont shoot at 100yds at least touching for 5 shots load is no good but what I have Stated is almost standard, You have to keep eye on greasers if you shoot them, for leading. You are actually making this harder then it is.

 

[UndeadPoet]

I have a 1990s Pedersoli .45 percussion Pennsylvania Dixie rifle with a a 42” barrel, and a 2019 Pedersoli .54 percussion Blue Ridge/Frontier Rifle with a 39” barrel. Both are nicely made rifles.

 

[pacanis]

My next Pedersoli is due in tomorrow.
Sometimes they make a mistake and it's here a day early, but not in this case.

It's a .32 and I know I won't be able to see into the bore. I'm wondering if I should just blindly polish it up some or shoot it first, then polish if needed.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Just fire lap it by shooting . Kits from 400 to 1200 grit.

http://www.neconos.com/category/PRESSUREFIRELAPPING-20

 

[pacanis]

Interesting. I didn't know they had something like that for ML's.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Fire lapping is pretty easy to do in a ML.

 

[drpatton]

Just fire lap it by shooting . Kits from 400 to 1200 grit.

http://www.neconos.com/category/PRESSUREFIRELAPPING-20

I am aware of fire lapping and neconos. I have never done it, nor do I know when to and when not to fire lap. Is there some kind of guide? I would never fire lap my Pedersoli target rifles. maybe a T/C.

 

[smokepolehall]

My next Pedersoli is due in tomorrow.
Sometimes they make a mistake and it's here a day early, but not in this case.

It's a .32 and I know I won't be able to see into the bore. I'm wondering if I should just blindly polish it up some or shoot it first, then polish if needed.

You are getting Pedersoli in a .32, rock sparker or perc. ? Any way congrats on it. Naw don't polish the brass but rub the wood where it be pretty

 

[NMSharps]

Not sure if you are looking at percussion or flintlock..

Here is my experience with the Pedersoli Frontiers of which I have 2. The percussion guns are TOP notch, the flintlocks need a bit of tuning, they spark well but the springs are not balanced. The frizzen spring is much too strong. There are tomes written on spring balance. They do shoot! I have never seen a production flintlock that didn't need tweaks to make it work. Pedersoli flinters are the best of the production guns.

 

[drpatton]

flintlocks need a bit of tuning, they spark well but the springs are not balanced

I own 5 Flintlocks. I never have tuned one, nor do I know what to tune.
Ared there good videos explaining how to do it?

 

[NMSharps]

I own 5 Flintlocks. I never have tuned one, nor do I know what to tune.
Ared there good videos explaining how to do it?

Regrettably no on the videos. Tuning a lock is a bit of an art form. The best info on this is from Peter Alexander in the book "The Gunsmiths Of Greenville County" On production import locks the biggest issue is the Frizzen Spring being way too strong. A quick way to check a lock is remove the frizzen spring, charge the pan and fire the weapon if the lock sparks as it should and ignites the prime you are most likely ok. If it does not you have bigger lock issues. The only purpose of the frizzen spring is to keep it from opening with the muzzle towards the ground. Below is an excerpt from our sister site Muzzleloaders:
There is also a lot of good information out on the American Long Rifles forum.

This was a reply to another member asking a similar question, not my reply..

Not being snarky but that is why I said there are tomes written on this subject..

Since you are new to the forum, you need to explore what is already here. Go up to the top of the Index page to this forum, and look for a box marked, " Member Resources". Then scroll down to a thread marked "Articles, Charts, and Links". There are wonderful pieces of useful information found there. Review it. Among the articles is one on Shooting and Tuning Flintlocks. It will give you some information on what you want t know.

Tuning locks involves " Reverse Engineering". That is, you begin where you want to go, and go back wards, one step at a time from there. anything that hinders the final goal( quick ignition of the main charge) needs to be "Fixed".

Percussion locks have 2 springs; flintlocks have 3. Each spring provides energy to perform separate functions from the other(s). To tune the lock, you remove all the springs, and then the parts, and begin with the lock plate. Most plates ARE soft. Their thickness, and the tension of the mainspring on the tumbler actually will determine if case hardening the lock plate should be done.

The plate must be Flat along the inside, so that all the internal parts attached to it can move freely. I test the parts manually, to check clearance, and properly angled points of contact, BEFORE I put those parts' spring back in the lock.

The order I work on parts after checking the lockplate is:

1. The frizzen, and its spring;

2. The mainspring and the tumbler( along with the tumbler bridle, and fly, if present.)

3. The sear bar, and its spring.

The logic of my madness? Everything in a lock leads up to that flint striking the frizzen properly to produce sparks, and getting them down in the flash pan as quickly as possible.

If the frizzen binds, or is slow to open, we fail. The result is inconsistent ignition, at best, short flint life, and lack of shooter confidence in his gun. All can cause a missed shot.

So, I work on the frizzen and its spring FIRST. Since these items are on the outside of the lock plate, they are also the easiest to observe in operation on the gun.

The rotation of that hammer( cock) is all important, in a flintlock, so the hammer, tumbler, and mainspring become the next most important items to work on. Most locks have a bridle to support the tumbler, and most tumblers today are designed to be used with a double set trigger. That then requires a " Fly" installed on the tumbler to allow the sear to slide over the half cock notch when the gun is fired.

The tumbler has to rotate as smooth as glass in the lock plate hole. check this manual, without the mainspring attached to the tumbler. Later when you are checking, and polishing the contact surfaces between the hook of the mainspring and the horn of the tumbler( if the tumbler is designed this old-fashioned style) You will want to examine how squared the nose of the hook is to the horn, so that the spring is not putting TORQUE on the tumbler and creating binding and wear to the tumbler and the hole in the lock plate. I have examined locks where the nose of the hook on the lower arm of the mainspring is so out-of-square that the mainspring actually will slide off the horn unless held in place by the wood in the lock mortise!

Contact points of the springs, and the parts they move must be polished to a glass smooth surface to get the least friction, and the best mechanical performance of both the springs, and the moving parts.

The small sear spring has the least tension, moves the least, and therefore usually requires the least amount of work to bring it up to best performance. Its simple job is to push down on the sear bar, so that the sear goes back to its "unfired" position, awaiting for the hammer to be re-cocked. In some actions, the sear spring also has to move the trigger back to its "rest" position. Polishing the nose of the sear spring, and the contact surface on the sear so that the parts move without any hesitation- smooth as glass- will give you the best working performance.

Once you get the lock all polished, oiled, and put back together, you can move on to design issues, such as how tall the cock is, where the flint strikes the frizzen( Angle of impact), where the flint edge is located during its cycle when the frizzen opens( or not), TH location, size of TH, How much powder to use in the flash pan, and then the proper techniques for loading your gun to maximize fast ignition.

Many of the foreign made locks are being produced by people who just copy some lock they see in a museum, without knowing if its a good lock or not. They think the frizzen spring's job is to hold the frizzen closed, so that the flint bites deeply into the face of the frizzen to Gouge out metal. They are wrong. One of the oldest "Tests" of a good lock is to leave the frizzen spring out of the lock, and test fire the gun. If its tuned properly, the gun fires quickly and surely everytime you load it, and the flash pan, cock and pull the trigger.

The ONLY JOB a frizzen spring was ever intended to do was keep the frizzen CLOSED when the gun was carried muzzle down.

Man of the modern locks have coil springs and struts, use bar and stirrup connections to join the mainspring to the tumbler. These lock require different approaches to tuning, but all the directions on taking the parts down from the lock plate apply, and polishing them, are the same. Testing them manually is also the same.

Most of the coil springs are "over-engineered", and need to have coils clipped off of them to prevent stacking, and to stop the "rattle and tickle" these heavy springs deliver to the entire gun. Because of the bar and stirrups connection the coil spring strut to the tumbler, you are limited to what can be done to improve the speed of rotation of the tumbler in these locks. Advanced tuning of these kinds of lock involves making a new tumbler and changing the location of the half-cock, and full-cock notches to allow a shorter, faster rotation. For many target shooters, the half cock may become the full-cock notch, and no half cock notch will be provided.

I mention these anomalies simply to alert you to the fact that NOT ALL locks are made alike. The same REVERSE ENGINEERING principles will work in analyzing what needs to be "Fixed" on any lock to make its parts move more smoothly, and therefore faster, however. Care and maintenance thereafter determines how well a tuned lock continues to perform. :shocked2: :hmm: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:


Reply

 

[45-70]

why would you have to go through all that now days you saying most locks aren't any good?

 

[NMSharps]

why would you have to go through all that now days you saying most locks aren't any good?

The simple answer is production guns are mass produced. This is not an issue with percussion guns. Flintlocks by there very nature are much more complex.
I am not an expert by any means nor do I claim to be. I have been shooting and building Flintlock rifles for close to 50 years, and I am still learning. What I can say is that Import Flintlocks locks need work, at least in my opinion and almost all locks need work. Regardless if it's a Chambers, RE Davis, L&R etc. American made Flintlocks in my experience are much better than the imports. Now having said all of that, if it works for you and you are happy with the way it functions leave it alone. A case in point, for a long time people would take the Hammer from a TC Flintlock and put it on a Lyman Great Plains Flintlock, why because the hammer geometry on Lyman was a little off and the TC functioned much better. I don't have a dog in this fight or skin in the game. Again import percussion locks are top notch, Flintlocks are a whole different story.

i have attached a link to a video a gentleman posted that covers so many of the points I am talking about. Make your own decision on what is and is not acceptable to you.

 

[Bad Karma]

why would you have to go through all that now days you saying most locks aren't any good?

If I had to guess, it’s been a long time since a flintlock manufacturer had to produce a quality lock that fired as quickly as possible and as reliably as possible or suffer in business. Flintlock manufacturers, particularly in the lower price points aren’t held to the same standards and the consumers don’t hold them to a very high standard. (Because everyone knows that round ball rifles shoot 3-6 MOA at their very best, right?) I suspect that much of what was common knowledge has been lost in the intervening years.

 

[smokepolehall]

Sure has been some great info posted here lately. I for one will never buy another Pedersoli Flintlock with the small lock on it like the one on the Scout. Its the pits & all it has done for me is turn me off to Pedersoli made ML's. Ya know a $718 kit is not cheap, like those $300-$350 Traditions kits. The Scout should have had a very good working flint Lock made for it

 

[NMSharps]

If I had to guess, it’s been a long time since a flintlock manufacturer had to produce a quality lock that fired as quickly as possible and as reliably as possible or suffer in business. Flintlock manufacturers, particularly in the lower price points aren’t held to the same standards and the consumers don’t hold them to a very high standard. (Because everyone knows that round ball rifles shoot 3-6 MOA at their very best, right?) I suspect that much of what was common knowledge has been lost in the intervening years.

I agree for the most part.. 3-6 MOA for a round ball rifle? I don't know and 100's of Tree Rats would disagree.. Yes most consumers settle for "good-enough" for a multitude of reasons most of the time it's cost. To each their own, that's why I build my own rifles. I don't build for others just myself and now my grandchildren. I feel good because I have passed this passion and craft onto 3 of my grandchildren,.

 

[45-70]

If I had to guess, it’s been a long time since a flintlock manufacturer had to produce a quality lock that fired as quickly as possible and as reliably as possible or suffer in business. Flintlock manufacturers, particularly in the lower price points aren’t held to the same standards and the consumers don’t hold them to a very high standard. (Because everyone knows that round ball rifles shoot 3-6 MOA at their very best, right?) I suspect that much of what was common knowledge has been lost in the intervening years.

guess you never been to Friendship