Thompson Center or CVA ??

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Grouse said:
Muley Hunter said:
Yes, the MR does have a QLA. The MR also comes with a sling. That makes up for the price of the BH 209 breech plug you need to buy.

Boy, you would think I would of noticed that??? And the sling does seem really good.

Everyone has slings Muley, the Palm saver on the rod is worth it's weight in gold on the MR.

About that MR sling......I have a sling on another rifle, but the sling that came with my Accura MR is much nicer than the one I already have. Glad they moved away from the mold-injected sling attachments on the previous stocks.

That Palm Saver......I am hesitant to use carry it on my ramrod while hunting until I test (or see tested) the point of impact of my sight-in both with, and without it on @150 yards. To my novice eyes, it looks like there is a possibility it could alter the flight/stability of the slug. I'll never know, until I find out.
 
Butcher45 said:
Grouse said:
Muley Hunter said:
Yes, the MR does have a QLA. The MR also comes with a sling. That makes up for the price of the BH 209 breech plug you need to buy.

Boy, you would think I would of noticed that??? And the sling does seem really good.

Everyone has slings Muley, the Palm saver on the rod is worth it's weight in gold on the MR.

About that MR sling......I have a sling on another rifle, but the sling that came with my Accura MR is much nicer than the one I already have. Glad they moved away from the mold-injected sling attachments on the previous stocks.

That Palm Saver......I am hesitant to use carry it on my ramrod while hunting until I test (or see tested) the point of impact of my sight-in both with, and without it on @150 yards. To my novice eyes, it looks like there is a possibility it could alter the flight/stability of the slug. I'll never know, until I find out.

Your right, it's possible. Here's a group at 150
In some bad conditions with it on.

 
I like the palm saver and always left it on. I don't know how it can affect accuracy? It doesn't touch the barrel.
 
Muley Hunter said:
You don't leave the ramrod in the gun when you hunt?

Depends entirely on the maximum shooting distance I may be hunting at times. If I'm hunting the woods, where shots will be 70yds or closer, it may stay under the barrel. If I'm hunting agricultural fields, it stands beside me and not under the rifle. You will not get the best groups from a rifle with the ramrod hanging under the barrel. Certainly not with some "knob" hanging of the end of it, messing up barrel harmonics.

Want proof? Just head to an in-line competition and notice how many shoot with the ramrod under the barrel......
 
Interesting reading.

Never used a TC PowerRod. My .45 Disc Elite came with a Knight PowerRod. I wish they still sold them, I really like it, no need for a loading jag or palm saver, the loading end fits the 200gr SST/Barnes 195 Expander just right.

I like the CVA palm saver, it works quite well at the range. When hunting, the palm salver is unscrewed and put with the reloading supplies carried afield, I have read where one was shot off.

When blind hunting, the ramrod is removed. When stalking or walking to our spot, the ramrod is in-place.

When shooting at the range, the ramrod is removed and used for loading and is placed on the bench while shooting.
 
Muley Hunter said:
I like the palm saver and always left it on. I don't know how it can affect accuracy? It doesn't touch the barrel.


Transitional ballistics.

Slugs don't touch the crown of the muzzle, either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_ballistics

"Once the bullet exits the barrel, breaking the seal, the gases are free to move past the bullet and expand in all directions".

I don't see how the gas can be free to expand in all directions, when the Palm Saver is blocking much of the direction SOME of the gases PROBABLY want to go. I can easily see the potential for gas to be re-directed in an uneven fashion, disrupting the bullet to some degree or another.

To take it to an extreme.......to my eyes, it somewhat resembles a muzzle that only has half of a crown.

I am going to venture to hypothesize that the accuracy will improve without that Palm Saver on the ramrod. Another point about barrel harmonics.......I think the improvement that were made to further stabilize the ramrod in it's place was a great move that likely did improve the barrel dynamics, along with the stealth factor. I won't stand for a gun that rattles when you shake it.

I will be testing accuracy with the ramrod on, and off the gun along with having the Palm Saver on and off of the ramrod. Though leaving the ramrod off of the gun in the field really isn't an option for me, seeing as I sit down in random places to call predators all day, and often forget to pick-up my reload off of the ground before going to my next spot. The ramrod would surely be left behind at some hard-to-relocate place at some point (like the very first howler I ever made :x ).
 
ENCORE50A said:
Muley Hunter said:
You don't leave the ramrod in the gun when you hunt?

Depends entirely on the maximum shooting distance I may be hunting at times. If I'm hunting the woods, where shots will be 70yds or closer, it may stay under the barrel. If I'm hunting agricultural fields, it stands beside me and not under the rifle. You will not get the best groups from a rifle with the ramrod hanging under the barrel. Certainly not with some "knob" hanging of the end of it, messing up barrel harmonics.

Want proof? Just head to an in-line competition and notice how many shoot with the ramrod under the barrel......

How different are your groups with the ramrod on and off the gun?
 
ENCORE50A said:
Muley Hunter said:
You don't leave the ramrod in the gun when you hunt?

Depends entirely on the maximum shooting distance I may be hunting at times. If I'm hunting the woods, where shots will be 70yds or closer, it may stay under the barrel. If I'm hunting agricultural fields, it stands beside me and not under the rifle. You will not get the best groups from a rifle with the ramrod hanging under the barrel. Certainly not with some "knob" hanging of the end of it, messing up barrel harmonics.

Want proof? Just head to an in-line competition and notice how many shoot with the ramrod under the barrel......

I don't doubt the ML will shoot better with ramrod out at any range. But I can tell you this, if it wont shoot MOA with it in, I don't want the ML anyway.
 
Grouse said:
ENCORE50A said:
Muley Hunter said:
You don't leave the ramrod in the gun when you hunt?

Depends entirely on the maximum shooting distance I may be hunting at times. If I'm hunting the woods, where shots will be 70yds or closer, it may stay under the barrel. If I'm hunting agricultural fields, it stands beside me and not under the rifle. You will not get the best groups from a rifle with the ramrod hanging under the barrel. Certainly not with some "knob" hanging of the end of it, messing up barrel harmonics.

Want proof? Just head to an in-line competition and notice how many shoot with the ramrod under the barrel......

I don't doubt the ML will shoot better with ramrod out at any range. But I can tell you this, if it wont shoot MOA with it in, I don't want the ML anyway.


+1
 
The first thing I did with the palm saver was store it in my gun cabinet. That is where it will remain. I always shoot with the ramrod in place. I hunt with the ramrod in place. I don't and won't use loads that require a lot of effort to get down the bore. I have shot from the bench with ramrod in vs out and never noticed any significant change in accuracy. I can see how the ramrod would/could affect accuracy noticeably if it was an extra heavy rod or somehow put torque on the barrel when in position but that effect has never shown itself in my shooting.

Although I strive for better than a 1.5" group at 100 yards, I consider that group size to be totally adequate for a hunting load. My UltraMag and my Apex will both shoot considerably better than that as long as I do my part. Have as yet not shot the MR so can't attest to it's performance but have no reason to suspect it will be any less a shooter.

The Accuras and Apex do NOT have a QLA and the term QLA is based upon marketing bull. Quick Load Accurizer sounds great until you look at the "accurizer" part of that claim. It cannot and does not add anything to accuracy. Once a bullet is loaded and properly seated, the only thing it can do is DETRACT from accuracy and it very often does exactly that... sometimes very dramatically. CVA calls their "false muzzle" a Bullet Guiding Muzzle and that labeling is perhaps more appropriate. Since it is much shorter, it makes any negative effects of having that un-rifled section less dramatic. And since CVA has, so far in my experience, positioned their "false muzzle" section concentric with the bore much more consistently I've seen no ill effects on accuracy from their barrels.

I consider myself a bit of a spastic. But, even so, I don't need a false muzzle to accurately position a sabot load in a barrel. Someone must be more than a bit spastic if they can't do the same. I don't find the shallow bullet guiding muzzle section to be a detraction from performance or accuracy and will give you that it does make positioning the load a bit easier. TC took an old idea and incorporated into their modern designs. They seemed to overlook that "false muzzles" of the past were not permanent fixtures - they were removable for a reason.

Bottom line is that I find CVA's BGM to be a marked improvement over TC's QLA and the fact that it is shorter in length to be a very big plus rather than a negative.

Oh by the way... can anyone show me where some real metallurgical testing has been done on current CVA (Bergara), Knight, TC to determine yield strength?
 
Underclocked said:
Oh by the way... can anyone show me where some real metallurgical testing has been done on current CVA (Bergara), Knight, TC to determine yield strength?

If your concerned about safety in case of a bore obstruction or double loading etc, I would be more concerned with the breech plug strength then the barrel strength. There's a pretty good read about different metals but I only saved a small part of it talking about SS 416 barrels and a high end Bergarra barrels.

Below is a cut and paste from something I was reading.


If other suppliers will say that their barrels are SS-416, only a Certificate of Chemical and Mechanical Analyses can determine its quality. UDMC’s AISI 416 Stainless Steel PREMIUM ordnance grade barrel has contents of Vanadium, Nickel and Molybdenum which are not found on a standard AISI 416 stainless steel barrel. The net effect is that the United Defense-Bergara barrels have a yield strength of 780 MPa (versus 275 MPa of std AISI-416 SS) and a tensile strength of 920 MPa (versus 517 MPa of std AISI-416 SS). In terms of toughness, UDMC barrel is 73 Joules versus 34 Joules of the std AISI-416 SS.

On another note, People are taking there APex and having the breech plug changed and shooting Smokeless. Im not sure whats in the cheaper CVA'S but I would think the Accura would have as good as a barrel as the Apex in it?? But im not sure of that at all, but I think the breech plug is they key not the barrel as of right now. That's only an opinion of what I found out so far with nothing to really support it.
 
Underclocked said:
The first thing I did with the palm saver was store it in my gun cabinet. That is where it will remain. I always shoot with the ramrod in place. I hunt with the ramrod in place. I don't and won't use loads that require a lot of effort to get down the bore. I have shot from the bench with ramrod in vs out and never noticed any significant change in accuracy. I can see how the ramrod would/could affect accuracy noticeably if it was an extra heavy rod or somehow put torque on the barrel when in position but that effect has never shown itself in my shooting.

Although I strive for better than a 1.5" group at 100 yards, I consider that group size to be totally adequate for a hunting load. My UltraMag and my Apex will both shoot considerably better than that as long as I do my part. Have as yet not shot the MR so can't attest to it's performance but have no reason to suspect it will be any less a shooter.

The Accuras and Apex do NOT have a QLA and the term QLA is based upon marketing bull. Quick Load Accurizer sounds great until you look at the "accurizer" part of that claim. It cannot and does not add anything to accuracy. Once a bullet is loaded and properly seated, the only thing it can do is DETRACT from accuracy and it very often does exactly that... sometimes very dramatically. CVA calls their "false muzzle" a Bullet Guiding Muzzle and that labeling is perhaps more appropriate. Since it is much shorter, it makes any negative effects of having that un-rifled section less dramatic. And since CVA has, so far in my experience, positioned their "false muzzle" section concentric with the bore much more consistently I've seen no ill effects on accuracy from their barrels.

I consider myself a bit of a spastic. But, even so, I don't need a false muzzle to accurately position a sabot load in a barrel. Someone must be more than a bit spastic if they can't do the same. I don't find the shallow bullet guiding muzzle section to be a detraction from performance or accuracy and will give you that it does make positioning the load a bit easier. TC took an old idea and incorporated into their modern designs. They seemed to overlook that "false muzzles" of the past were not permanent fixtures - they were removable for a reason.

Bottom line is that I find CVA's BGM to be a marked improvement over TC's QLA and the fact that it is shorter in length to be a very big plus rather than a negative.

Oh by the way... can anyone show me where some real metallurgical testing has been done on current CVA (Bergara), Knight, TC to determine yield strength?

Probably not a big deal with sabots, but what about conicals? Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they aren't used. It's definitely an aid to starting some conicals.
 
I'm surprised this is still going on. All CVA's use the same barrel. The same material is used for all barrels. The same employees and machines make all the barrels in the Bergara factory.

CVA needs to justify the higher price of the Accura's and Apex, so they have Bergara do some extra polishing on those models. They call them the premium barrels and they're the only ones that are marked Bergara. All CVA barrels are the same as far as materials and construction.

Call CVA and ask them if you don't believe this. Although this info is on their web site if you know where to look. I've posted it in the past.
 
Grouse said:
ENCORE50A said:
Muley Hunter said:
You don't leave the ramrod in the gun when you hunt?

Depends entirely on the maximum shooting distance I may be hunting at times. If I'm hunting the woods, where shots will be 70yds or closer, it may stay under the barrel. If I'm hunting agricultural fields, it stands beside me and not under the rifle. You will not get the best groups from a rifle with the ramrod hanging under the barrel. Certainly not with some "knob" hanging of the end of it, messing up barrel harmonics.

Want proof? Just head to an in-line competition and notice how many shoot with the ramrod under the barrel......

I don't doubt the ML will shoot better with ramrod out at any range. But I can tell you this, if it wont shoot MOA with it in, I don't want the ML anyway.

Next time you're shooting 300m or 400m or yards, shoot with and without it. Now if you're looking to just hit an 8" pie plate at those distances, well...
 
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