Thompson Center or CVA ??

[ENCORE50A]

Oh by the way...............On another note, People are taking there APex and having the breech plug changed and shooting Smokeless. Im not sure whats in the cheaper CVA'S but I would think the Accura would have as good as a barrel as the Apex in it?? But im not sure of that at all, but I think the breech plug is they key not the barrel as of right now. That's only an opinion of what I found out so far with nothing to really support it.

I believe the Apex that is shooting smokeless, is actually NOT a muzzleloader barrel, but a 45-70 converted.

 

[long shot]

pie plate at 100 is 55 gallon drum lid at 500

 

[ENCORE50A]

A pie plate is a dead elk at any distance.

Just wondering, can you hit an 8" pie plate at 400yds with your muzzleloader?

You're missing the point, as usual.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

On another note, People are taking there APex and having the breech plug changed and shooting Smokeless.

Hopefully no one is shooting smokeless out of their black powder barrels. The Apex conversions I read about are 45-70 centerfire barrels having machine work done to install a smokeless breechplug.

 

[Muley Hunter]

A pie plate is a dead elk at any distance.

Just wondering, can you hit an 8" pie plate at 400yds with your muzzleloader?

You're missing the point, as usual.

No, I didn't. You said a pie plate at 400yds like it wasn't any good. I said a pie plate at any distance is a dead elk. I made no claim of shooting anything. I don't need to shoot that far anyway. I know how to get close, and I have no interest in target shooting, except BP shoots. (offhand)

What point do you think I missed? Which is really you missing my point.

Bottom line is leaving the ramrod in or out won't mean a thing to the average hunter.

 

[Butcher45]

A pie plate is a dead elk at any distance.

Just wondering, can you hit an 8" pie plate at 400yds with your muzzleloader?

You're missing the point, as usual.

No, I didn't. You said a pie plate at 400yds like it wasn't any good. I said a pie plate at any distance is a dead elk. I made no claim of shooting anything. I don't need to shoot that far anyway. I know how to get close, and I have no interest in target shooting, except BP shoots. (offhand)

What point do you think I missed? Which is really you missing my point.

Bottom line is leaving the ramrod in or out won't mean a thing to the average hunter.

The average hunter almost always aims at a "pie plate". Personally, that is not my style. I demand more precision than that. Bigbore airgun hunting ingrained the mindset into my head.

I am aiming at large apples, and when I can't hit a large apple at a given distance under ideal conditions during practice, then that distance is beyond my personal limits.

I'm not just looking at a muzzleloader as my hunting arm.........it's my fun factory, too. So perhaps I demand more from a muzzleloader than some others may. Shooting really small groups (or even grey diggers :twisted: ) at really long ranges with a muzzleloader sounds like a good time to me.

 

[Muley Hunter]

I don't accept pie plate accuracy either, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Pie plate accuracy at any distance will kill an elk. That was my statement.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I don't accept pie plate accuracy either, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Pie plate accuracy at any distance will kill an elk. That was my statement.

And that's fine, as its your point. However what was being talked about was barrel harmonics and rather one of those "knobs" can make a difference in how the rifle may or may not shoot. Rather one believes it or not, it exists, is proven it exists, and can cause differences in POI. If a pie plate is all you're worried about hitting, then that's ok for you. Not everyone else. Eliminate all the contributing factors possible....

 

[alphaburnt]

Not TC vs CVA but I will go down this rabbit trail with you all for entertainment. In regards to pie plate accuracy, it is a slippery slope you tread when making that statement. Aiming for dead center on a pie plate (8 or 9" dia.) and hitting within is one thing, when you are hunting and your animal does not have an aiming point is when you get into trouble, the exact middle is not defined (pie plate is now enlarged). Angle, elevation from you to animal, is one thing that changes your hold that must be realized too. Position of animal is another that must be realized, broadside, qtr to or away, creates more problems. You must plan on the exit hole to make sure your aiming point is true. On elk qtr hard, you had better have the best bullet construction for deep penetration and so much more with pie plate accuracy. Where the animal is standing is another consideration, Example: vitals only exposed, trees framing that 4" hole- I want much greater than pie plate accuracy. Muley Hunter, I know you know much more is required.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Not TC vs CVA but I will go down this rabbit trail with you all for entertainment. In regards to pie plate accuracy, it is a slippery slope you tread when making that statement. Aiming for dead center on a pie plate (8 or 9" dia.) and hitting within is one thing, when you are hunting and your animal does not have an aiming point is when you get into trouble, the exact middle is not defined (pie plate is now enlarged). Angle, elevation from you to animal, is one thing that changes your hold that must be realized too. Position of animal is another that must be realized, broadside, qtr to or away, creates more problems. You must plan on the exit hole to make sure your aiming point is true. On elk qtr hard, you had better have the best bullet construction for deep penetration and so much more with pie plate accuracy. Where the animal is standing is another consideration, Example: vitals only exposed, trees framing that 4" hole- I want much greater than pie plate accuracy. Muley Hunter, I know you know much more is required.

When I say pie plate accuracy i'm not talking at the range. I know some hunters that easily shoot MOA at the range, but struggle shooting pie plate accuracy on game. So, when I say pie plate accuracy i'm talking about from center of the kill zone on game. That will be a kill.

I've never been impressed with what someone can do at the range. Too many variables when hunting. Shoot good in the field, and i'm impressed.

I hope that makes more sense. I also must stress I don't settle for pie plate accuracy at the range.

 

[rangerod]

I've never been impressed with shooting abilities at the range either. You go when the weather is ideal. Comfortable temps,no wind,sitting at a table,taking all the time you want to make the shot. Out in the woods actually hunting is a very different animal (pun intended). I once worked with a fellow who was an amazing shot with a bow but couldn't close the deal on a whitetail. I always liked that old saying aim small miss small. I haven't noticed any difference in accuracy either with or without the rod under the barrel.

 

[Butcher45]

I thought this topic was about what makes for a "better" muzzleloader........not what makes for a "good-enough" muzzleloader, or a "what is good-enough for the average hunters' abilities" muzzleloader.

I will take "better", over "good enough" any day.

Though some hunting comments have been made, this topic doesn't appear to me, to be about hunting muzzleloaders specifically (even though I presume most of us will hunt with them). A big factor, sure....but certainly not the end of the line. Competing in Inline muzzleloader matches sure sounds like fun to me.

I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, nor vice-versa. The term "pie plate accuracy" was used (by a couple posters, not just one), so I added my own thoughts on the term itself, and how I perceive it in general. My comments are directed at what a large segment of hunters are satisfied with, and the fact that some muzzleloader enthusiasts (whether they hunt, or not) demand more from their gear (i.e. something BETTER). I pointed no fingers at anyone else's thoughts about what accuracy is acceptable.......just shared my own (note the words personally, personal, and "to me").

Though I have some personal hunting trophies/accomplishments that I hold dear (coyotes, and a bobcat), I have yet to bag anything with what I would consider to be a pie-plate sized vital zone. When I finally see that big Rosie in my sites, I will be aiming for that big apple inside it's chest.

Though the likelihood of my being able to do so is low at present, I don't ever want to be able to outshoot my gun. I intend to invest a good bit of time to get proficient at long-range shooting. Apparently, long-range muzzloloading is only getting more popular.

 

[Muley Hunter]

There's a big difference in pie plate accuracy at the range, and on game. A lot of guys actually use pie plates at the range, and figure if they can hit that it's all good. Those are the guys who wound game, or miss completely. I'm certainly not recommending that.

Everybody should strive for the smallest groups possible at the range. Then do their best to duplicate it on game. I don't post range sessions, because of personal reasons. That doesn't mean I can't shoot.

 

[Butcher45]

There's a big difference in pie plate accuracy at the range, and on game. A lot of guys actually use pie plates at the range, and figure if they can hit that it's all good. Those are the guys who wound game, or miss completely. I'm certainly not recommending that.

Everybody should strive for the smallest groups possible at the range. Then do their best to duplicate it on game. I don't post range sessions, because of personal reasons. That doesn't mean I can't shoot.

I knew what you were saying.

I've been to a range maybe 4 times in my life. Personally, I use a bench (or stump) to develop loads and test for that loads inherent accuracy. After that is done, it's on to field position shooting practice/hunt preparation which is much more fun than bench shooting, anyways. When practicing for hunting, it should be obvious that field-position shot are to be practiced. I do realize that's not how it goes for everyone. I doubt I would have pulled-off the neck-shot on my Bobcat, had I not practiced my offhand-shooting a whole-lot before that season began.

Now back to what makes a better muzzleloader......

 

[long shot]

Good deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I have heard , but not saying it is true. Sometimes the QLA might not be centered on some barrels.

 

[Muley Hunter]

It's been true on some TC's.

 

[Underclocked]

Probably not a big deal with sabots, but what about conicals? Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they aren't used. It's definitely an aid to starting some conicals.

Pete, you don't have a clue as to how funny your comment to me is. :mrgreen:

 

[Muley Hunter]

Always glad to hear I cheered you up.

 

[35Whelan]

Wow this thread really took off, a little off track from my original question,but a lot of interesting things came out of it. I would have never thought that leaving the ramrod in might affect accuracy.. Almost like leaving the quiver attached to your bow while hunting. Some swear it affects everything from accuracy to arrow speed to noise. and I'm sure it does,but to what extent? I've killed deer with the quiver on and off,but with thought instilled in my mind I try to take it off lately while hunting. But as far as the ramrod, it will stay in while hunting. But that CVA ramrod with the palm saver has to go.. Just plain ugly. Once sighted in how many times I'm I going to reload out in the field? If I do need to reload once or twice,thats what I have a glove for.

After talking to Carlos yesterday, he said to go with a CVA. So since I was leaning that way anyway, I'm 100% certain I'll go with a CVA MR. He assured me that the 25 inch barrel would not decrease accuracy. So the next step will be to find a store that has one in stock and go and see how it feels. Then I'll have to decide on a scope for it... An suggestions would be appreciated. Kinda leaning towards a plain duplex recticle. Thanks again to all that commented. Looking forward to maybe helping someone out in the future with a question which I have some knowledge on.
Rich

 

[Grouse]

Wow this thread really took off, a little off track from my original question,but a lot of interesting things came out of it. I would have never thought that leaving the ramrod in might affect accuracy.. Almost like leaving the quiver attached to your bow while hunting. Some swear it affects everything from accuracy to arrow speed to noise. and I'm sure it does,but to what extent? I've killed deer with the quiver on and off,but with thought instilled in my mind I try to take it off lately while hunting. But as far as the ramrod, it will stay in while hunting. But that CVA ramrod with the palm saver has to go.. Just plain ugly. Once sighted in how many times I'm I going to reload out in the field? If I do need to reload once or twice,thats what I have a glove for.

After talking to Carlos yesterday, he said to go with a CVA. So since I was leaning that way anyway, I'm 100% certain I'll go with a CVA MR. He assured me that the 25 inch barrel would not decrease accuracy. So the next step will be to find a store that has one in stock and go and see how it feels. Then I'll have to decide on a scope for it... An suggestions would be appreciated. Kinda leaning towards a plain duplex recticle. Thanks again to all that commented. Looking forward to maybe helping someone out in the future with a question which I have some knowledge on.
Rich

When your viewing this forum and other forums most guys have there favorite. Just cause its there favorite doesn't mean its gonna be good for you. I think so more then ever people are preaching one manufacture. Carlos is a known CVA promoter, of course hes gonna suggest a CVA. If I was you I would research the guns you like and hold them before you buy. I think the MR feels really good, but that doesn't mean it will for you. The MR is far from cheap, and the guns your looking at are far from cheap. I would just make sure I would get the best for you based on looks feel and quality. They will all shoot accurate. I own an MR Nitrate and a Triumph. Either one should last you a lifetime. And if you go with the MR I think Midway USA has them on sale or they did.