BIG Minie’s, BIG Powder Charges

[Walkingeagle]

The issue lies with those that want to make a muzzleloader into a modern centerfire in regards to range capability and bullet performance. Traditional lead, heavy projectiles perform flawlessly when used as they were meant to be. It don’t matter if launched with sidelock or scoped inline, they are very effective and range limiting. Without the massive hydrostatic shock meat damage.
The “modern“ muzzleloader, that being self contained primer and cartridge encased, and breech loaded, shot at ranges out to many hundreds of yards will result in the death of the special muzzleloader seasons, or zone restrictions. As population increases range limits become more important.
Walk

 

[Sideshow]

Take 2 bullets. Both of equal mass, metplat size, lead alloy and impact speed. One though has a higher sectional density. Such as a 500gr 45cal vs a 500gr 58cal. The one with the higher SD (45cal) will almost always penetrate better.

45cal/500gr=225 SD
58cal/500gr=136 SD

Huge difference in SD

Agreed . BUT this is not all ive said GM54--120 . The Entire Context of what im trying to convey is being missed .
Being an engineer the scope of The Laws of Physics is well practiced here with me . I do understand these other points . Im not miffed at all . Ive found that these things my experiances have shown me quite puzzleing at times !!! Some things just have their own truths ive come to realize and accept . I dont have knowledge cornered . I seldom throw around what i do know or my profession . Fluid Dynamics is not easy . Anything that moves basically .
Again im not perturbed nor agitated . I ask questions and learn things here daily from the generocity of many here . You , Lewis , encore50a just to name a few . Im delighted about that !!! Many thanks !!!
This , what ive stated , in my experiances isnt bs . You guys think that "I" wasnt suprised too ??? You betcha !!! But through trial and error , mostly error , i stumbled across "my answer" for the conditions ive described....repeatedly .
Dont know what else to say . It WORKS , at least for me .

 

[Sideshow]

The issue lies with those that want to make a muzzleloader into a modern centerfire in regards to range capability and bullet performance. Traditional lead, heavy projectiles perform flawlessly when used as they were meant to be. It don’t matter if launched with sidelock or scoped inline, they are very effective and range limiting. Without the massive hydrostatic shock meat damage.
The “modern“ muzzleloader, that being self contained primer and cartridge encased, and breech loaded, shot at ranges out to many hundreds of yards will result in the death of the special muzzleloader seasons, or zone restrictions. As population increases range limits become more important.
Walk

Your probably right in some areas . HOWEVER what DOES this have to do with 766gr @ 1600 from a smoothbore shotgun preformance wanted to be duplicated from a muzzleloader ???
Nothing at all......

 

[Walkingeagle]

Your probably right in some areas . HOWEVER what DOES this have to do with 766gr @ 1600 from a smoothbore shotgun preformance wanted to be duplicated from a muzzleloader ???
Nothing at all......

Never said it did. No need to be defensive.
Walk

 

[GM54-120]

Sorry the dang SD calculator defaults to mm so i had to edit my post for the correct SD values. Typically anything over 200 SD is pretty good for deer sized game depending on bullet construction but more will never hurt a thing. Too low however ends up with results like you see from a Powerbelt pushed too fast.

 

[Sideshow]

Never said it did. No need to be defensive.
Walk

Walkingeagle i thought this is what you were refering to . I apoligize for that .
I have several mz's as many of you do . On top of i just like this one or that one i try to purpose their uses . Yes i have a 300 yd capable mz . That one is going to become the 58 . The long range job will also be replaced .
Ive watched Lewis ring a gong at 600 yds . 451 whitworths were lethal to 1000 and beyond . What have i missed ?? Not trying to be difficult . I just dont get whats being pursued .

 

[451whitworth]

why not just shoot a 540 grain 45 at 1670

The only pressure data I've ever seen for a .451" muzzleloader was a strain gauge test on a Whitworth repro shooting 90gr. Goex CTG with a 540gr. hex bullet and it was right at 27,000 psi. To get a .45 cal - 540gr. bullet to 1670 fps would require close to 40,000 psi.

 

[Idaholewis]

Lewis i do agree but youve kinda missed what ive said . #1) Im not talkin about my 300 win mag here . #2) I generally brine shoulders ,(most all blood is gone) and smoke them . #3) Massive hydrostatic shock is velocities buddy . #4) Big lead isnt going to achieve high velocity without our own "skeletal restructureimg" at the boom . #5) what ive said isnt BS . #6) HOW i used that 50 NOW , hasnt a thing to do with what i plan for a 58 . #7) This type of hunting river bottom shictangle isnt for everybody and is HIGHLY SPECIALIZED . #8) 40 yrs of it has taught me well . This isnt my 1st " Goat Ropin " . I can only hope youll see this.....

Sideshow, You are like a BB Rolling down a 6 Lane Highway

My post that you quoted, i wasn’t pointing at ANYONE, It was simply me stating how i feel about my Muzzleloaders and my BIG LEAD, and How Little i feel toward the HIGH BC Bullets for Hunting. It had NOTHING to do with you, and your River Bottom Plan.

If i were you, i would get a Section of Stove Pipe, have a Mold Cut to fit it, Dump a Gallon of Pyrodex Down the Bore Per Shot, When one of them MONSTA’S Come Strolling through, CUT DRIVE on Him!! Even a Miss would Surely be a Hit

 

[Sideshow]

Sideshow, You are like a BB Rolling down a 6 Lane Highway

My post that you quoted, i wasn’t pointing at ANYONE, It was simply me stating how i feel about my Muzzleloaders and my BIG LEAD, and How Little i feel toward the HIGH BC Bullets for Hunting. It had NOTHING to do with you, and your River Bottom Plan.

If i were you, i would get a Section of Stove Pipe, have a Mold Cut to fit it, Dump a Gallon of Pyrodex Down the Bore Per Shot, When one of them MONSTA’S Come Strolling through, CUT DRIVE on Him!! Even a Miss would Surely be a Hit

Lmao !!! You wouldnt mind if i used some schedule 40 @ 8" dia would ya !!! I think it would leave me with a little more workin bore ??
What can i say ole buddy besides bring enough gun !!! Lol !!!

 

[Sideshow]

Lmao !!! You wouldnt mind if i used some schedule 40 @ 8" dia would ya !!! I think it would leave me with a little more workin bore ??
What can i say ole buddy besides bring enough gun !!! Lol !!!

I guess the bottom line is ......print cant convey the WHOLE meaning.....

 

[Idaholewis]

Lmao !!! You wouldnt mind if i used some schedule 40 @ 8" dia would ya !!! I think it would leave me with a little more workin bore ??
What can i say ole buddy besides bring enough gun !!! Lol !!!

 

[Sideshow]

Cool , life is GOOD !!!!!

 

[Idaholewis]

Take 2 bullets. Both of equal mass, metplat size, lead alloy and impact speed. One though has a higher sectional density. Such as a 500gr 45cal vs a 500gr 58cal. The one with the higher SD (45cal) will almost always penetrate better.

.452cal would be 350 SD
.580cal would be 212 SD

Huge difference but either would be fine for medium to most large game.

True, Exactly what Happened here

 

[Rlsmith]

Lewis that was great shooting with the 58 I have a 58 great cal. But I like history and all the debate on large bullets is great everyone can like what they like. But the best testing I've seen you do is with the 54 round ball the old timers used round ball a lot in 54 and killed all the game we have today here but somehow most think that it won't work today, well every one has a opinion keep up the good work your doing great.

 

[Sideshow]

True, Exactly what Happened here

Amazing isnt it . The straight line penetration is better with the smaller and ligjter bullet . Yet the bigger one is a sligjtly better stopper he says . Both with the same velocity or there about . Pressure x area working on the same medium . 7 in of difference in penetration or roughly 1/3 more .
Yet if you take a skinnier guy running into you and bounceing off , then a much heavier one only troting hits you the same way the fat guy dont bounce , you do !!! Solidly braced or not .
This is what i was talking about .

 

[ENCORE50A]

There's something to be learned from each one of these posts
You guys that are ruining meat by shooting through the shoulders its just not necessary, short of dangerous game.

 

[Sideshow]

There's something to be learned from each one of these posts
You guys that are ruining meat by shooting through the shoulders its just not necessary, short of dangerous game.

I guess . Hell encore50a , personally im just trying to cut though a mess at times so i CAN put one through them . The spot i speak of i almost wish id never found it . Killing a 300lb dressed deer isnt the issue , gettin a bullet to them is !!!! The next issue then afterwards is finding them if they run and gettin them out !!! DRT is best for me . There is quick sand type spots there . I wear flotation too .

 

[Walkingeagle]

Walkingeagle i thought this is what you were refering to . I apoligize for that .
I have several mz's as many of you do . On top of i just like this one or that one i try to purpose their uses . Yes i have a 300 yd capable mz . That one is going to become the 58 . The long range job will also be replaced .
Ive watched Lewis ring a gong at 600 yds . 451 whitworths were lethal to 1000 and beyond . What have i missed ?? Not trying to be difficult . I just dont get whats being pursued .

My comments were not pointed your way at all. You are talking big and heavy, as am I. Same page in fact.
I too have seen both Lewis and Ron shoot them hotrod sidelocks to amazing distance and accuracy, including in the odd hunting scenario, but I also know that the vast majority of these amazing shots are done off a bench, in perfect conditions with a target that doesn’t move. Remember that in ethical hunting the prey deserves an ethical kill, and when there is a space in time between the shot and impact where a step may be taken, a turn made or a simple wind gust becomes a plausible factor, is that shot then ethical? This question also relates to the post you have below on the .54 round ball. Yes, it is capable without a doubt, and has proven that in the past as you’ve stated, however the requirement to collect meat for survival (as it was in them “good ol’days”) makes ethics irrelevant as compared to hunting as it is done today. Keep the roundball to its true effectiveness and enjoy the hunt!
Walk

 

[45-70]

These Big Lead Bullets DRIVE through stuff that’s for sure!

If a guy gets in to Real Blackpowder/Muzzleloaders with the idea of them being “Speed Demons” he is in for a BIG Disappointment! It’s simply NOT there!! This is one reason I RARELY bother taking a Chronograph, I have Shot these things SO MUCH over the last few years that i know REALLY close to what they are Doing, and NOT Doing. Yesterday with this Big .58 Cal was a Different Situation due to the XTRA LARGE POWDER CHARGE, I had never done anything like that before, And really didn’t know what to Expect? But i was CONFIDENT it would NOT Break 2,000 fps, and i was Definitely Right about that. After i Shot the 1st 150 Grain Load (Off Camera) and Seen 1,577 Fps i knew how it was gonna Play out, And you hear me Say it in the Front of the Video (Something to tune of “I think you will be Surprised, it’s not Doing what you might Think?”)

My Old Stainless .50 Cal with a 450-460 Grain Bullet and 95 Grains of Swiss 2F yielded a MV of 1450-1475 fps, that was a STOUT Load in it, I wouldn’t have wanted to push it anymore than that.

My .45 Cals with 530-540 Grain Bullets and 80-85 Grains of Powder Run about 1,300-1,350 fps

My .35 Cal 1:15 Twist 32” Barreled Muzzleloader with 340 Grain Bullet taught me another Lesson about Velocity in these things. I expected to get 2,000 fps? Or there Close abouts, NOT THE CASE, 60-70 Grains gave me the Best Results, Velocity was 1,500-1,600 fps, I decided to Up the Charge to 100 Grains, I barely Broke 1,700 Fps, and in Doing so i COMPLETELY COOKED a Brand New Treso/Ampco Nipple. These Smaller Bores, With REALLY Fast Twists, pushing Heavy Bullets build BIG PRESSURE, MUCH Faster than a Larger Bore.

The only pressure data I've ever seen for a .451" muzzleloader was a strain gauge test on a Whitworth repro shooting 90gr. Goex CTG with a 540gr. hex bullet and it was right at 27,000 psi. To get a .45 cal - 540gr. bullet to 1670 fps would require close to 40,000 psi.

if it actually reached 1670

 

[ENCORE50A]

I guess . Hell encore50a , personally im just trying to cut though a mess at times so i CAN put one through them . The spot i speak of i almost wish id never found it . Killing a 300lb dressed deer isnt the issue , gettin a bullet to them is !!!! The next issue then afterwards is finding them if they run and gettin them out !!! DRT is best for me . There is quick sand type spots there . I wear flotation too .

Been in some of the most snagnasty, briar infested, throne apple spiked, burdock loaded stuff, willow marshes, including bog marshes where no sane person would ever venture with floatation. Yeah the big boys like that. That stuff is for the youngsters now days. Yup, I've killed a few in places so bad, I just thought it best to just start a fire and eat the damn thing right there.
But for most, they don't need to ruin all that meat.