CVA Paramount Update

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
There are elements of muzzleloading that seem to confine liberty to me, 28 twist barrels, powerbelt bullets, and the price of Black Horn give me liberty or give me death I know things are changing I hope so
 
It costs more per shot to shoot Hodgdon Triple Se7en and IMR White Hots Pellets than it does to shoot Blackhorn 209. Yet you never hear anyone complaining about that. No wonder Hodgdon isn't in any hurry to challenge Western Powders, they make a killing off those pellets.
 
Again that's information I did know I appreciate that, we might have to form a muzzleloaders Union I'll be a lobbyist for it,I personally think single-shot rifles muzzleloaders etc are the future of guns in America and I know that's a big topic and I won't get into that,, I'll just sum it up this way those in the gun industry that supply the muzzleloaders of this country have ignored their market or should I say their future market ,imagine what a gun company / powder company could do that actually listen to the needs of American muzzleloaders, deep breaths y'all forgive me I'm having to work instead of shoot this weekend do I seem I'm a little wound up
 
Again that's information I did know I appreciate that, we might have to form a muzzleloaders Union I'll be a lobbyist for it,I personally think single-shot rifles muzzleloaders etc are the future of guns in America and I know that's a big topic and I won't get into that,, I'll just sum it up this way those in the gun industry that supply the muzzleloaders of this country have ignored their market or should I say their future market ,imagine what a gun company / powder company could do that actually listen to the needs of American muzzleloaders, deep breaths y'all forgive me I'm having to work instead of shoot this weekend do I seem I'm a little wound up

Absolutely agree with you. This county was settled from coast-to-coast, and it's game population decimated by men & women shooting mostly single-shot muzzleloading, and breech-loading rifles.

If a relatively young guy like Jim Kibler can invest in CNC machinery, and in less than a decade turn out two extremely high quality, 99% CNC machined, historically-correct, flintlock rifle kits that are reasonably priced; then imagine what the major manufacturers could do if they only wanted to.

And, put the same effort into muzzleloading and ethical/responsible hunting with only 1 shot; that they do with large magazine capacities, multiple shots on the same animal, long-range killing (NOT hunting), and magnumitis.

Webster's Dictionary: magnumitis...
1.)A disease peculiar to modern shooters & hunters. 2.) Recognized by close family, friends, and co-workers as the constant, obsessive, overwhelming need and desire to search out, purchase, and shoot handguns, rifles, and occasionally shotguns of ever larger bore size, projectile speed, and killing power. 3.) Symptoms are identical to classic drug addictions. 4.) Treatments are many, with detoxification being paramount. [As a side note, in severe cases of detox the necessity for placing the patient in long term contact with 10, or more, PETA members, may be required]. 5.) MA, Magnumitis Anonymous is recommended for long term treatment of this disorder.
 
The gun builders and powder companies will have to listen to us eventually,, heck maybe we can get norma or the Europeans to listen to American shooters because American companies aren't
 
The gun builders and powder companies will have to listen to us eventually,, heck maybe we can get norma or the Europeans to listen to American shooters because American companies aren't

Some of the rifle manufactures are listening, and have been now for a little over 10 years. They are also manufacturing their rifles in Europe.

Western Powders also distributes Norma Smokeless Powders.

http://normapowder.com/
https://www.westernpowders.com/
 
All I know is if a company develops some working alternatives in rifles, in powders , that are forward-thinking as well as building on what traditional muzzleloading has given us as a base, that company is going to be very successful.take the best of what current muzzleloading offers us today and make it even greater. Bullets have come along,, there are great bullets !!powders and rifle designs have not kept up
 
Thank you I was trying to get off my soapbox,, I like blackhorn I just don't like how blackhorn has been managed and how it continues to be. I'd love to see an improved version of it,I'd love to see a couple of powders that actually bridge blackhorn and smokeless it's okay if I dream, let me just ask this hypothetical if a company came out with something better than Black Horn wonder where all the business would go? And a smokeless powder designed especially for muzzleloading ,,
multiple powders. Again I'm looking 20 and 30 years down the road even though I probably won't be around it doesn't seem like the industry's looking forward to me they are looking to control, and I understand that I'm in business to I just really see opportunity to be honest in many areas involving muzzleloading.
 
Thank you I was trying to get off my soapbox,, I like blackhorn I just don't like how blackhorn has been managed and how it continues to be. I'd love to see an improved version of it,I'd love to see a couple of powders that actually bridge blackhorn and smokeless it's okay if I dream, let me just ask this hypothetical if a company came out with something better than Black Horn wonder where all the business would go? And a smokeless powder designed especially for muzzleloading ,,
multiple powders. Again I'm looking 20 and 30 years down the road even though I probably won't be around it doesn't seem like the industry's looking forward to me they are looking to control, and I understand that I'm in business to I just really see opportunity to be honest in many areas involving muzzleloading.

I realized long ago, nothing about what I like to do, is inexpensive. I'm even reminded of that every so often ;) Then you take what you think is a final leap, only to discover you dove into the shallow end and feel you have to leap again from the other end. If one does the math between equal amounts of BH and SML, how much do you really gain in overall cost savings? Don't forget "new and improved" bullet prices, range fees or club costs, etc. :)

The costs, at least the major markup costs, are the distributors, who make a mint. Just an example, when I was shooting the BP Xpress and using T7M pellets, 3 of them each round, that's 16 rounds per box and a box runs very close to, or at $30. I was fortunate enough to eliminate the distributor and bought the same box for $15. I needed that reduction, especially when shooting over 4 cases a year. I had to buy it in cases to get the 50% discount.
I can assure you, there's no end to the rabbit hole.....
 
As the population grows I expect that there will be more and more areas going to shot gun and muzzleloader only. I expect that when that happens more people will get into muzzleloading which will push up the competition .
 
When you look at the entire outdoor sporting goods industry, from archery to firearms to inland boating to ocean boating to fishing in all of its forms to bicycling to backpacking to climbing, and so on and so on and so on; the entirety of muzzleloading, from the most traditional handgonne/wheelock to the most radical smokeless muzzleloader (and ALL of the supporting elements that make M-L work) only comprises approximately 1/1000th of 1% of the revenue for the industry.

That's why the BIG BOYS don't wanna be bothered. They just don't see the profits in it. Virtually none of them are willing to look at ANY industry with the type of forward looking attitude that the Asian companies approach business with. And, certainly NOT MUZZLELOADING!!!!

It's guys like Jim Kibler that got sick and tired of the parts that he was getting from foundries being not good enough for his kits.

To the point that he has invested in 2 CNC machines so that he can fabricate everything on his flintlock rifle kits except for the frizzen, the cock, and the top jaw of the locks.

In the last year he has brought to market 2 separate flintlocks that don't just look good. The internals, as well as the externals are not just historically correct, the geometries are right. And they use construction and assembly techniques like the best of the European locks from the past did.

The first lock was a round-faced English styled flintlock that went on his Early Colonial Rifle Kit. Replacing a Jim Chambers lock of similar shape and style. The latest lock, ready to go in his Mountain Rifle kits in the next week, or so, is a Late Ketland style export flintlock with a semi-waterproof pan. Locks like these were exported from England by the tens of thousands in wooden kegs during the first 2 decades of the 19th Century.

In several months, 3-4, he will be bringing to market a separate version of the Ketland lock that will have a high tech (19th Century) waterproof pan and frizzen on it.

Current cost of all 3 locks? An amazing $235.00. Expect the waterproof pan version to cost a little more.

Another man, Chris Laubach, is bringing to market a CNC machined version of a 1740-1760 German flintlock with a curved lockplate, and FORGED SPRINGS. Approximate cost $345.00

These two men, and Jim's wife Katherine, are the best thing to happen to traditional muzzleloading in decades.

Mr. Kibler's made no bones about the troubles he's had with getting foundries to turn out acceptable work. Now that he controls virtually the entire production process, with the exception of the barrel, breech plug, and three cast parts, he can guarantee his quality, and reduce his problems.

His barrels come from Rice Muzzleloading Barrels. The breech plugs are CNC machined by Quality Tool & Machine Co., and installed by Rice.

Jim Kibler has let it be known that he will eventually turn his talents to percussion locks, as well as left-hand locks.

This is one man trying to make a difference where he has his true loves. The flintlock longrifle. If he can do as much as he has with the limited funds at his disposal, then what should a company like Pedersoli be able to accomplish?

So many of Pedersoli' s guns that are not direct copies of historical firearms, look down right amateurish and hokie to me. It's like they never bothered to actually put their hands on a specimen of the type of gun that they are trying to emulate. Like they made it from a picture.

A company with their resources ought to be able to produce guns with locks at least as good as the ones Jim Kibler and Chris Laubach are making. Why they don't is a total mystery to me.

European barrels are first rate. So why are their breech plugs, powder drums, locks, touch hole liners, etc done so poorly, so often? Not all of the time, but a lot of the time?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As the population grows I expect that there will be more and more areas going to shot gun and muzzleloader only. I expect that when that happens more people will get into muzzleloading which will push up the competition .
It used to be sort of like that, but now states all over are opening up the straight wall case usage in high populated southern MI, muzzleloader use in our state has declined considerably. They're selling thousands of 450 Bushmasters and now the 350 Legends. One of my old muzzleloader hunting friends that has hunted with a muzzleloader almost as long as I have, hasn't had his muzzleloader out since they allowed straight wall cartridges in MI. Last I knew, he had four 450 Bushmasters. With CWD etc., the state has pretty much decided they don't care how they reduce the herd. For someone that really, really wanted to push the SML use in MI, even that might pass. Things are changing, aren't they?
 
When you look at the entire outdoor sporting goods industry, from archery to firearms to inland boating to ocean boating to fishing in all of its forms to bicycling to backpacking to climbing, and so on and so on and so on; the entirety of muzzleloading, from the most traditional handgonne/wheelock to the most radical smokeless muzzleloader (and ALL of the supporting elements that make M-L work) only comprises approximately 1/1000th of 1% of the revenue for the industry.

That's why the BIG BOYS don't wanna be bothered. They just don't see the profits in it. Virtually none of them are willing to look at ANY industry with the type of forward looking attitude that the Asian companies approach business with. And, certainly NOT MUZZLELOADING!!!!

It's guys like Jim Kibler that got sick and tired of the parts that he was getting from foundries being not good enough for his kits.

To the point that he has invested in 2 CNC machines so that he can fabricate everything on his flintlock rifle kits except for the frizzen, the cock, and the top jaw of the locks.

In the last year he has brought to market 2 separate flintlocks that don't just look good. The internals, as well as the externals are not just historically correct, the geometries are right. And they use construction and assembly techniques like the best of the European locks from the past did.

The first lock was a round-faced English styled flintlock that went on his Early Colonial Rifle Kit. Replacing a Jim Chambers lock of similar shape and style. The latest lock, ready to go in his Mountain Rifle kits in the next week, or so, is a Late Ketland style export flintlock with a semi-waterproof pan. Locks like these were exported from England by the tens of thousands in wooden kegs during the first 2 decades of the 19th Century.

In several months, 3-4, he will be bringing to market a separate version of the Ketland lock that will have a high tech (19th Century) waterproof pan and frizzen on it.

Current cost of all 3 locks? An amazing $235.00. Expect the waterproof pan version to cost a little more.

Another man, Chris Laubach, is bringing to market a CNC machined version of a 1740-1760 German flintlock with a curved lockplate, and FORGED SPRINGS. Approximate cost $345.00

These two men, and Jim's wife Katherine, are the best thing to happen to traditional muzzleloading in decades.

Mr. Kibler's made no bones about the troubles he's had with getting foundries to turn out acceptable work. Now that he controls virtually the entire production process, with the exception of the barrel, breech plug, and three cast parts, he can guarantee his quality, and reduce his problems.

His barrels come from Rice Muzzleloading Barrels. The breech plugs are CNC machined by Quality Tool & Machine Co., and installed by Rice.

Jim Kibler has let it be known that he will eventually turn his talents to percussion locks, as well as left-hand locks.

This is one man trying to make a difference where he has his true loves. The flintlock longrifle. If he can do as much as he has with the limited funds at his disposal, then what should a company like Pedersoli be able to accomplish?

So many of Pedersoli' s guns that are not direct copies of historical firearms, look down right amateurish and hokie to me. It's like they never bothered to actually put their hands on a specimen of the type of gun that they are trying to emulate. Like they made it from a picture.

A company with their resources ought to be able to produce guns with locks at least as good as the ones Jim Kibler and Chris Laubach are making. Why they don't is a total mystery to me.

European barrels are first rate. So why are their breech plugs, powder drums, locks, touch hole liners, etc done so poorly, so often? Not all of the time, but a lot of the time?
you need to come to NMLRA shoot
 
It used to be sort of like that, but now states all over are opening up the straight wall case usage in high populated southern MI, muzzleloader use in our state has declined considerably. They're selling thousands of 450 Bushmasters and now the 350 Legends. One of my old muzzleloader hunting friends that has hunted with a muzzleloader almost as long as I have, hasn't had his muzzleloader out since they allowed straight wall cartridges in MI. Last I knew, he had four 450 Bushmasters. With CWD etc., the state has pretty much decided they don't care how they reduce the herd. For someone that really, really wanted to push the SML use in MI, even that might pass. Things are changing, aren't they?


The area where I hunt near Lansing still requires a muzzleloader during muzzleloader season.
 
The area where I hunt near Lansing still requires a muzzleloader during muzzleloader season.

If you're near Lansing and in the CWD management zone, both the 450 Bushmaster and 350 Legend are legal firearms during the muzzleloader season.

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons An individual hunting deer with a muzzleloading firearm during the muzzleloading deer season shall only possess or carry afield, or take a deer with a crossbow, muzzleloading rifle, muzzleloading shotgun, or black-powder pistol, loaded with black-powder or a commercially manufactured black-powder substitute. (Exception: in the CWD Management Zone and Core CWD Area muzzleloader season is open to all legal firearms...
 
To address the OP question, I don't see any reason 777 couldn't be used. I would stick with the 120gr max as listed with Hodgden and be aware of necessity to swab between shot and water based cleanup. The velocities of 777 and Blackhorn 209 look pretty close. CVA might give some insight as I'm sure they tested the Paramount using different powders. They have a FB page with factory reps reading and responding to issues.
Of course as always, I could be wrong.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top