Measuring volume on BH209

[ElDiablo]

Gram or grain? I haven't seen or heard of anyone using a gram as a weight for powder.

Hopefully grain - because grams are a pretty course unit of measurement (1 gram = 15.4 grains).

 

[Decay]

We’ll now this will really confuse the issue: I always thought “gram” was my mothers mother. Or a cracker.

And a “grain” is not a unit of measurement of volume. It’s used incorrectly in this forum frequently. A grain is a unit of measurement of weight. Dram is the unit we used to use for tiny volume measurements of powder. It’s 1/16 of a fluid ounce. Remember reading “ dram equivalent” on your boxes of shotgun shells. But that dram word hasn’t been used ever on this forum. At least I’ve never seen it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a device that measures drams either. Those little marks you see on the little plastic cylinders that we buy to store our pre-measured powder charges are sometimes marked as “ml”. Those are milliliter’s, the metric measurement of volume. I don’t have any black horn with me right now so I can’t measure the volume to weight comparison of Blackhorn, but I believe on Sunday I’ll be able to show how many milliliters 100 grains of Blackhorn is. And that’s not really a good comparison because volume is dependent on other factors, especially compression. What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

 

[MrTom]

It would be great if there was a standard by which powder was measured OTHER than the volume. Those damned powder measure tubes are the most unreliable way to get powder measured accurately for consistent shooing because the markings used to indicate the grains by volume can vary from tube to tube no less than from tube maker to tube maker. And then there are those that tap, knock, bump, scrape and who knows what else to level a charge in a volume measure, IF whoever takes time to level each charge. And then there are those who will argue that pellets are the answer but if they took a new box of pellets and started to WEIGH each one, they'd soon see how they are not so accurate either. In the end, weighing has been proven to be the most accurate way to measure powders, and especially Blackhorn 209 and T7 in the black powder sub category.

I just pointed out that a gram and a grain are NOT the same in any way. I don't give a rip what others do to create their powder charges, but I weigh all of mine so that the powder charge itself is not going to be a critical factor if other factors in a load are already known: think in terms of bullet weight, sabot used, primer used and the cleanliness of the gun itself.

But to answer the OP's question on Bh209 vs Pyrodex, BH209 has to be measured by volume at 70% of what the Pyrodex charge is.... if you're loading 100 grains of Pyrodex now, the equivalent in BH209 would be 70 grains by volume. Also, when BH209 was first introduced the making company established the volume measure was to be used with the powder and that the maximum charge in ANY firearm was set at 120 volumetric grains and the 70% standard was applied. Over time very smart shooters figured out a way to weigh those volumetric charges and discovered just how inaccurate that method of measuring BH 209 was. I honestly think that Hodgdon should get smart and recommend that BH209 be weighed to determine charges instead of using a volume measure, but then the company is in the business of selling this high-priced stuff and suggesting a short cut to accuracy, such as weighing, would eliminate the use of a lot of powder needlessly so any changes are not likely to come from the mother company.

 

[txhunter58]

When muzzleloaders were king, the pioneers didn’t have a gr scale and had to use volume when loading real blackpowder. So they used 100 gr VOLUME EQUIVALENT (roughly equivalent to 100 gr weight of blackpowder weight)

Somewhere along the way we stopped the “equivalent” part and that can be confusing to new muzzleloader shooters.

Subs are usually geared toward making 100 gr of VOLUME roughly equivalent to blackpowder in power. But each one of them weighs different.

I hunt with open sights out to 150 yds. The difference in accuracy for that range is not significant. I shoot 1.5-2” groups at 100 yrds with open sights. So, for me, there is no reason to weigh charges. YOMV

 

[Decay]

Tom: There is a standard and it is WEIGHT. You just used the term "grain of volume". As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no such thing as a "grain" of volume. That's how commonly the term is misused on this forum.


Weighing charges is the only way to get real accuracy. I someone wants only to hit a pie plate at 50 yds, then volume measuring is adequate. But it's inconsistent and not good enough for real, sub moa accuracy.

 

[ronlaughlin]

there is no such thing as a "grain" of volume.

Yet the photos show this device that measures such

 

[txhunter58]

Tom: There is a standard and it is WEIGHT. You just used the term "grain of volume". As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no such thing as a "grain" of volume. That's how commonly the term is misused on this forum.


Weighing charges is the only way to get real accuracy. I someone wants only to hit a pie plate at 50 yds, then volume measuring is adequate. But it's inconsistent and not good enough for real, sub moa accuracy.

I do way better than hitting a pie plate. For hunting out to 150 yards you don’t have to weigh charges. You are 100% correct that it is more consistent and accurate. But for me, the advantages don’t outweigh the extra trouble.

 

[Decay]

Yet the photos show this device that measures such





View attachment 41407


View attachment 41408

Does that little brass device say grains on it somewhere? I don’t see that in the photo. They could be drams, milliliters or cubic centimeters too if they’re not labeled. Show me a book, internet link or any reference material that shows grain as a unit of measurement of volume. You won’t find one because it doesn’t and never has existed. It’s a term being misused commonly.

 

[ElDiablo]

 

[MrTom]

Tom: There is a standard and it is WEIGHT. You just used the term "grain of volume". As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no such thing as a "grain" of volume. That's how commonly the term is misused on this forum.


Weighing charges is the only way to get real accuracy. I someone wants only to hit a pie plate at 50 yds, then volume measuring is adequate. But it's inconsistent and not good enough for real, sub moa accuracy.

I'm not arguing with you Decay. I fully agree that weight is the form of measure that is the most accurate. But over time, as txhunter58 has suggested in his reply just above this, the term grain has been adopted as a unit of dry measure in a volume sense as it relates to the power of the load. Here is what he says....

"Subs are usually geared toward making 100 gr of VOLUME roughly equivalent to blackpowder in power. But each one of them weighs different."

..... in this case you are both right and wrong about the volume measure of grains of powder. But both of us acknowledge weight as the way to go, so right, wrong or otherwise the lowly grain is here to stay when it comes to powder charges.

Txhunter58 goes on to say that, "I hunt with open sights out to 150 yds. The difference in accuracy for that range is not significant. I shoot 1.5-2” groups at 150 yards with open sights. So, for me, there is no reason to weigh charges". I'm not going to diss him if he's satisfied with his shooting, which at 150 yards with open sights is commendable I will add.

Something that has been lost over time is that "equivalent to blackpowder in power" mention of txhunter58's. I think its safe to say that BH209 rules the roost in terms of power per given quantity as compared to true blacks and any of the other subs. T7 granular would be a very close second in my opinion with the fffg granulation a slight better than ffg. Speaking in relative terms to power, both of these powders will benefit from weighing charges, however its clear that volume measure gives adequate accuracy at some distances for people choosing NOT to weight. If they're happy, good enough. As for myself, and I believe as for you as well Decay, I want zero influence from varying charge levels, so I weigh to totally eliminate that variability. I do this because I refuse to "settle" on the powder charges being almost identical. As I mentioned earlier in another post, I could care less what others are happy with or whether they weigh powder or use the volume method as long as they feel they have achieved what they want to achieve.

But back to grain vs gram. As long as all of the powder manufactures, reloading manuals and blackpowder gun producers accept the "grain" as a unit of "dry" measure for both volume and weight we should agree to use it. Grain - gram comparison though, an once doesn't have too many grams in it but, whoa nelly, there's a pile of grains in an ounce so its best to not confuse the two especially when dealing with gun powder or black powder.

 

[txhunter58]

This is a 75 yard target with open sights using volume measurements only to shoot BH209.
The 3 different groups vary because I was testing different amounts of powder volume
There are 2 shots at the bottom group and then 3 shots with the other 2 groups after making adjustments.

That’s a pretty small pie plate And I did not swab once for all those shots.

 

[ronlaughlin]

there is no such thing as a "grain" of volume.

The pictured device measures up to120 such

 

[txhunter58]

Yet the photos show this device that measures such





View attachment 41407


View attachment 41408

Thats the exact volume measure that I use for hunting. I don’t care about 2 gr here or 3 gr there. Just put the measure on the line or 1/2 way in between (roughly 5 gr different is close enough for me). But i use this for every single load I throw.

 

[Decay]

View attachment 41411





The pictured device measures up to120 such

I suspect that the
Manufacturers of that device mis used the term grain also. And have been doing so for a long time.
Go back to basic chemistry classes where you learn about weights and measures. I’ll bet nobody else can find a device that uses grains as a unit of measurement of volume.

 

[Decay]

View attachment 41410

Now that’s funny

 

[ENCORE50A]

............................ I don’t have any black horn with me right now so I can’t measure the volume to weight comparison of Blackhorn,...................

 

[Decay]

Now compress the powder in the little brass device to the same incremental mark as the previous charge and see what the weights is

 

[ENCORE50A]

 

[ronlaughlin]

This device that is used to measure powder weighs 1234 grains. Does that prove it is real?

 

[ENCORE50A]

The first video was compressed, or rather tapped tight. A full volume charge set at 120grs.

And every lot# will be different.