Question on BH209 weight vs volume

[ronlaughlin]

Well i got tired of switching between Blackhorn and H4350 for Eben' 6.5 BR magnum. On ebay i found an old made in USA uniflow measure, and won the bid. The old Uniflow really really works good dispensing Blackhorn, but is awful dispensing H4350. This forces the Redding to be for H4350, and Blackhorn is now being dispensed by the Uniflow. Then i 'had' find another old Uniflow to use for CFE 223. Them old Uniflow work good. Some look rusty in their photo; i stayed away from the rusty ones.

 

[RedemptionML]

New to the forum, been shooting center fire for most of my life and reloading a good portion of that time as well. Recently purchased a new old stock LHR redemption and working with BH 209 powder. I am used to throwing consistent charges with my RCBS chargemaster and wanted to check to see what the weight to volume measurements were. It was my u understanding, like the charts listed previously, that 100 units measured by volume should equate to approx 70 gr8 by weight. I am using BH charge tubes as and first filled them to the 100 mark then emptied It onto the chargemaster and it weighed 90 grains. I repeated for every BH charge tube (also new) that I had. Same result.

I have been going round and round with one of the customer service reps at BH all morning via email.
This is a couple excerpts from the conversation. He gave this example:
Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight.
I asked:
So 100 volumetric units in you BH charge tubes "should" weigh 70gr correct? The powder in my tubes filled to 100 weigh 90gr, just want to be certain the charge tubes are labeled correctly.

And his response was:
No it will not. Please read the highlighted sentence.


Volumetric Units are NOT the same as weight in grains. Blackhorn is used by volume and therefore the charge is a measurement by volume. A volume charge is measured with a standard black powder measure. It is not weighed and a setting of 100 does not mean that you have 100 grains by weight, not even black powder. The loading densities of all substitutes and grades of black powder are different. The same volume of any will yield different weights of powder


Umm what??

 

[twild]

Not sure what they are saying but BH tubes are not accurate on volume.

 

[Busta]

Get a good Volume measure like the T/C U-View to measure your powder. Do not use the Blackhorn 209 powder storage tubes for measuring powder. The lines are for reference, at best. Once the powder settles, you will have quite a bit more powder than is indicated on the scale. They are close, if you do a slow soft pour. Once settled, not so much.

Fill the U-View a little over with powder rounded on the top. Tap the same number of times to settle. Then use the funnel top to cut it off clean. Might want to use a cap or empty bottle to catch the excess black gold.

Make your own full line on the other side of the powder tubes, for your reference.

Whatever unit of Volume you are wanting to convert, multiply that number by 0.7 for your weight measurement.

Examples: 100 grains by Volume × 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 grains Volume × 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. This can and will vary from different brands and models of Volumetric Measures, as well as different Lots of powder. Some volumetric measures throw less powder, some throw more.

Volume measurement of Black Powder and Black Powder Substitutes has always been the Industry Standard. That doesn't mean you cannot convert it to Weight, if you know the multiplier for your chosen powder. The above multiplier applies ONLY to Blackhorn 209.

 

[RedemptionML]

Here is what transpired next:

Take the powder from the container to the scale do not measure the powder in the tube. Take a piece of tape and cover over the volume lines if you are going to weigh the powder. As volume and grains are not the same. Volume is an area of space measurement and grains is a weighed measurement. Again they are not the same.

And I replied

I understand that the measurements are different but you can get the weight of somthing that is occupying a certain area or volume.

1 cubic ft of concrete weighs 150.23 lbs

1 cubic ft of water weighs 62.43 lbs

If the markings on the tube are missprinted by a quarter inch, the indication would still read 100 volumetric units but in actuality it would be approx 90 units. To verify that the markings are correct one could weigh the given charge and compare that weight to one from reputable source that would state what the product in question should weigh "x" gr when occupying the given space (BH charge tubes).

So I ask once more, what is the weight of BH 209 powder occupying 100 units of space inside a BH charge tube?

I have not received another email since.

 

[RedemptionML]

Get a good Volume measure like the T/C U-View to measure your powder. Do not use the Blackhorn 209 powder storage tubes for measuring powder. The lines are for reference, at best. Once the powder settles, you will have quite a bit more powder than is indicated on the scale. They are close, if you do a slow soft pour. Once settled, not so much.

Fill the U-View a little over with powder rounded on the top. Tap the same number of times to settle. Then use the funnel top to cut it off clean. Might want to use a cap or empty bottle to catch the excess black gold.

Make your own full line on the other side of the powder tubes, for your reference.

Whatever unit of Volume you are wanting to convert, multiply that number by 0.7 for your weight measurement.

Examples: 100 grains by Volume × 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 grains Volume × 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. This can and will vary from different brands and models of Volumetric Measures, as well as different Lots of powder. Some volumetric measures throw less powder, some throw more.

Volume measurement of Black Powder and Black Powder Substitutes has always been the Industry Standard. That doesn't mean you cannot convert it to Weight, if you know the multiplier for your chosen powder. The above multiplier applies ONLY to Blackhorn 209.

Will be headed to the gin shop in the am for a more accurate measuring device. I guess the quality of product stopped at the powder, oh and customer service.

 

[sabotloader]

Get a good Volume measure like the T/C U-View to measure your powder. Do not use the Blackhorn 209 powder storage tubes for measuring powder. The lines are for reference, at best. Once the powder settles, you will have quite a bit more powder than is indicated on the scale. They are close, if you do a slow soft pour. Once settled, not so much.

Fill the U-View a little over with powder rounded on the top. Tap the same number of times to settle. Then use the funnel top to cut it off clean. Might want to use a cap or empty bottle to catch the excess black gold.

Make your own full line on the other side of the powder tubes, for your reference.

Whatever unit of Volume you are wanting to convert, multiply that number by 0.7 for your weight measurement.

Examples: 100 grains by Volume × 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 grains Volume × 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. This can and will vary from different brands and models of Volumetric Measures, as well as different Lots of powder. Some volumetric measures throw less powder, some throw more.

Volume measurement of Black Powder and Black Powder Substitutes has always been the Industry Standard. That doesn't mean you cannot convert it to Weight, if you know the multiplier for your chosen powder. The above multiplier applies ONLY to Blackhorn 209.

Will be headed to the gin shop in the am for a more accurate measuring device. I guess the quality of product stopped at the powder, oh and customer service.

Instead of the U-View volume measure I would suggest the this TC measure.

Really a durable and functional measure

 

[NorthNJHunter]

Get a good Volume measure like the T/C U-View to measure your powder. Do not use the Blackhorn 209 powder storage tubes for measuring powder. The lines are for reference, at best. Once the powder settles, you will have quite a bit more powder than is indicated on the scale. They are close, if you do a slow soft pour. Once settled, not so much.

Fill the U-View a little over with powder rounded on the top. Tap the same number of times to settle. Then use the funnel top to cut it off clean. Might want to use a cap or empty bottle to catch the excess black gold.

Make your own full line on the other side of the powder tubes, for your reference.

Whatever unit of Volume you are wanting to convert, multiply that number by 0.7 for your weight measurement.

Examples: 100 grains by Volume × 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 grains Volume × 0.7 = 77 grains by weight. This can and will vary from different brands and models of Volumetric Measures, as well as different Lots of powder. Some volumetric measures throw less powder, some throw more.

Volume measurement of Black Powder and Black Powder Substitutes has always been the Industry Standard. That doesn't mean you cannot convert it to Weight, if you know the multiplier for your chosen powder. The above multiplier applies ONLY to Blackhorn 209.

Will be headed to the gin shop in the am for a more accurate measuring device. I guess the quality of product stopped at the powder, oh and customer service.

Instead of the U-View volume measure I would suggest the this TC measure.

Really a durable and functional measure

Here's a link:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10022 ... increments

 

[Idaholewis]

Instead of the U-View volume measure I would suggest the this TC measure.

Really a durable and functional measure

I have 2 of these and they are great measures! I have 1 exactly like this photo, and the other is solid brass Old Stock TC, Both of mine are like new, I rarely use a Volume measure, but when i do i use these!

 

[WV Hunter]

I have used both ways. I normally just use volume - the key is consistency. I remember a number of very respected members here talking about how BH209 was best to by measured by volume... in order to be more consistent. If you do a search, maybe you can find those conversations.

 

[sabotloader]

I have used both ways. I normally just use volume - the key is consistency. I remember a number of very respected members here talking about how BH209 was best to by measured by volume... in order to be more consistent. If you do a search, maybe you can find those conversations.

That truly is the key...

BH - I think Busta really provided the best explanation on the subject of BH - weighing and/or volume... Lot to lot the weight changes some what - but the volume will remain proportionately the same.

 

[WTM45]

If the engineers are attempting to make each powder lot conform to a precise burn rate by adjusting the granule size, then measurement by volume is the best method.

I have noticed little difference from lots/bottles/jugs. Maybe I am not shooting enough or using the chrono enough. But if I load a "heavier" load I can see much more unburned powder out front on the ground, so I have considered heaviest loadings a minor waste of propellant.

In my Ultralite, 77grW gives me great results with 250-260gr bullets. For 300gr+ bullets 70grW is plenty.

I still weigh, because I feel that is more precise, especially knowing I set my loads very tight and am quite sure much of the granules are getting crushed in the barrel. That loading by weight has to give some consistency when considering the total ejecta upon firing.

Honestly, I have seen more variation in results between different sabots than different lots of BH209. :mrgreen: